TheSamba.com :: View topic - crankshaft end play-mothball motor

Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:01 pm

I am going to attempt to start an engine that supposedly ran when parked. It seems to have good compression while turning it by hand, but if I pull out on the crank pulley it moves maybe a quarter inch. Is this what is referred to as end play and is this much movement bad? I don't want to waste time and money if the motor is shot. The engine # starts with 03, would that make it a 40hp?

Sun Jan 09, 2005 9:27 pm

Yes thats "endplay" in the VW sense of the term. :lol:
1/4 inch is a Lot of endplay. Not enough to get overly concerned about, but thats about the time when you seriously consider a rebuild. Its when the engine is getting really TIGHT is when you have to really worry (usually showing that the bearings are trying to seize).

The stock spec is .003 - .006", but I usually set them around 5 thou because its better to be on the loose side of the spec.

Its too hard to determine if the compression is good by turning the engine by hand. You really need a compression tester at minimum to do a good evaluation on an engine.

In general, if the engine letter code doesn't start with an "A" like AE, AH, AK, etc.....stay away. If you're doing a Restoration, thats another story. The older cases like H1232123 or B12312313 are Single Relief cases. They have one pressure relief valve instead of 2. The oil passages are not as good/large. They also use alloy that isn't as good as the later model cases. It has something around 2% aluminum compared to ~4% or so of the later cases. The best cases are the FI type 3 cases, they had around 7%.

I would hold out for a better engine unless you NEED this one.

Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:31 pm

VWBobby
You and I got the same bus??
I am in the process of "making" a motor for my bus. The deal I made with the PO means he keeps the 1776 that is currently in it. Thats cool. I have an H block longblock with the build sheet that shows ~10K miles. Professionaly rebuilt. Dual Port heads,1600, ran good when removed.
I also have an AE longblock that has Single Port heads and ran like it dropped or burned a valve when it was removed. It also has significant (1/4"?) end play.
I have new 1641 barrels and pistons that I was going to bolt onto the H block as I know the bottom end is good. After reading your post, I now wonder whether I would be better off to bolt the DP heads and 1641 B&P onto the AE block.
I am not a complete mechanical moron, but I have never split the case on a VW and really don't think I am qualified to rebuild the botom end. Hence, I would leave the bottom end as is and put the good top end stuff on the AE block and drive it as is.
Given these two scenarios, which is the lesser of the two evils??
Thanks
Obviously, I should have the AE block professionally built, but the bleeeding of cash dictates this will not happen this winter.

Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:44 pm

RFV wrote: I am going to attempt to start an engine that supposedly ran when parked. It seems to have good compression while turning it by hand, but if I pull out on the crank pulley it moves maybe a quarter inch. Is this what is referred to as end play and is this much movement bad? I don't want to waste time and money if the motor is shot. The engine # starts with 03, would that make it a 40hp?

I'd change the oil, clean the plugs, check the dizzy points, throw in a good battery, and use fresh gas from a gas can (not the gas tank in the car) and see if it runs.

Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:29 pm

Change all of the fluids and fire it up. I would address the endplay issue IMHO. A simple fix. Tools are cheap and available.

I just fired up an engine that has sat of 12 years and I swear, it sounded like it never missed a beat...all we changed was:
-Rear main seal (checked end play)
-Oil cooler seals (hard as a fricken rock they were)
-Blew carb cleaner through carb (throat only)
-Wire brushed plugs

I swear, Turned the key once, it coughed something fiece, set the timing and VROOOM...it started and IDLED!

Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:02 pm

Quote: I now wonder whether I would be better off to bolt the DP heads and 1641 B&P onto the AE block.

Hmmm... tough one since its worn. Maybe just throw that H block Longblock in there. It seems to be the most usuable engine you have. If everything checks out and seems fine, you can run that until it cracks/blows and build up that AE block you have in the meanwhile. If you don't want to build the bottom end yourself, you could contact BAP imports or my friend Joe Timberman (accu_tech_inc@yahoo.com) and have him build you an engine.

I'd run the best engine you have while you build up a new engine.

Don't run the 1641 (87mm) B&P on a Bus engine. You need all the meat you can get, and those are thinner than stock. 90.5's are safe though, but they need machining.

Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:17 pm

Pull the fly wheel and add a shim or two. Of course recheck the end play. This is just to get a few more miles until you can rebuild or get a rebuild done. I too would avoid the 87mm P&Cs long term. They will get you by for short term, but they run hotter with the extra weight of the bus, and a worn lower end won't last long with the 87s. I've started up engines that had sat for years, the last oldy i started had sat for 19 years. I got atleast 5000 miles out of it. It had low compression on #4. So after a few miles i pulled the jugs, sure enough the rings were cracked and the wrist pin clips were MIA just on #4. I slaped used p&cs on it, the same heads. It got me through a few months until I finished a rebuild. I have it on my garage floor as an emergency short block. I'm rebuilding one currently, and when I'm done I'll rebuild the emergency engine. If your mechanically inclined, tear into that case. It takes few special tools and a good book to rebuild an engine. I just take my time. If I run into any problem, even the smallest one, I stop, ask questions here and to my home VW club, get a few answers and the fix, and continue. I've posted a few questions on the engine forum here, but get little help, I think they'er mostly in to preformance/modified. I have much better luck right here in the split forum. I've had alot of fun and get alot of gratification out of doing my own rebuilds.

Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:59 pm

Thanks for the advice.
I went and checked my cases when I got hime, and the H block has dual relief!
I checked again to be sure, and sure as anything, there's that big old slotted nut staring at me from the flywheel end of the motor!
Hmm
Investigating the engine number more closely (with a flashlight this time), I discovered the block is an AH, not just an H. :D
That makes my decision a whole lot easier.
I am concerned by your warning to not use the 87 mm B&P though.
Is it because the walls are thinner and can develop hot spots because of less heat sink?

Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:11 pm

oh hell yeah!! Its always nice to find a diamond in the rough! :) Run that AH block. You had me worried when you started telling me it had dual relief valves and was an H case, thought my mind was slipping. ;)

You don't want the 87's because they are simply thinner. The cylinder walls are just bored out 1mm larger. Stock cylinders are something like 4.5mm thick, so now you only have 3.5mm supporting the piston and trying to stay straight under heat. (don't quote me on the cylinder thicknesses, thats an estimate but its Really close) If you run a bore gauge through them after 20K miles they will show a bunch of waves in the wall. Its even worse with the 88 slipins (1679cc) but they held up OK in a beetle I had. Its a MUCH lighter vehicle and has better engine compartment cooling however.

Now that you know you have a decent long block, be sure to drain any oil thats in it (there shouldn't be, but make sure) give it a good checkout before you start building it into a complete engine. Wouldn't want to find out something was damaged and you'd have to tear it all back down again.
Use Valvoline 30wt (straight 30 weight) for the first time you start it. After about 30 miles, switch it out for some 10w30 Valvoline or Kendall oil. This will add a lot of life to the engine. They seem to be the best dinosaur oils.

Good luck!
-Bobby

Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:42 am

Thanks all for the good advice.
As it turns out, I have three cases that are all dual relief.
I pulled a donor motor from a Super Beetle for the tin, but it turns out to have a solid bottom end even though the pistons were seized in the jugs from sitting for 5 +years. It was rebuilt by Volkswagen of Canada sometime in its life.
Only the AE block has a swack of end play!
I think what I will do is roll the AH the way it is, put the 87 mmB&P on the VWofC block with the single port heads as an emergency block. Then, send the AE block out to have the bottom end rebuilt and machined for meatier jugs. That way, I can have a proper 1776 (or so) ready for spring 2006 and still run worry free this summer. :D
I suppose I could run the VWof C engine in my Beetle, but I kinda like the stock 6V 40 horse for the Beetle.
At least I have options!!
Thanks Again Bobby!

Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:53 am

When I recently had an engine rebuilt by Boston Bob (www.bostonengine.com) he specifically had me find a '73 and later case to work from (AH, AK) instead of using the more common AE ('71-'72) case. The primary reason for this was the 10mm head studs, I think. He also mentioned the improved oil circulation of the dual relief case.

He built me a 1600cc dual port, using a counter-weighted crank, new P/C, new heads, and a Vanagon 2.1L cam (with extra valve spring shims). This is the standard upgrade 1600cc DP motor that he builds on a regular basis. So far I've got about 1000 miles on it in my '65 panel with stock tranny/reduction boxes and Kymco ceramic coated single pack exhaust. I've had it up to about 70mph on the highway and it still felt like it had more power to give. Unfortunately I need to replace my steering box before I can really explore the full power of this motor. The bus is also resting for the winter...

-Stan

Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:01 pm

Buckly wrote: Pull the fly wheel and add a shim or two. Of course recheck the end play. This is just to get a few more miles until you can rebuild or get a rebuild done. I too would avoid the 87mm P&Cs long term. They will get you by for short term, but they run hotter with the extra weight of the bus, and a worn lower end won't last long with the 87s. I've started up engines that had sat for years, the last oldy i started had sat for 19 years. I got atleast 5000 miles out of it. It had low compression on #4. So after a few miles i pulled the jugs, sure enough the rings were cracked and the wrist pin clips were MIA just on #4. I slaped used p&cs on it, the same heads. It got me through a few months until I finished a rebuild. I have it on my garage floor as an emergency short block. I'm rebuilding one currently, and when I'm done I'll rebuild the emergency engine. If your mechanically inclined, tear into that case. It takes few special tools and a good book to rebuild an engine. I just take my time. If I run into any problem, even the smallest one, I stop, ask questions here and to my home VW club, get a few answers and the fix, and continue. I've posted a few questions on the engine forum here, but get little help, I think they'er mostly in to preformance/modified. I have much better luck right here in the split forum. I've had alot of fun and get alot of gratification out of doing my own rebuilds.

My experience has been that when you try to take out that much end play from a used engine,it will lock up when retorqued. I would either re-build the bottom end or leave it alone.

Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:12 pm

Pull the flywheel and check the rear main bearing. If the movement is coming from the bearing to case fit, no amount of shims is going to tighten the play up. If not , set the end play and let it ride.

Wed May 14, 2008 7:03 am

can excessive endplay cause any type of noise?
i have some endplay in a mothball 40 i have about 200 miles on and wondering if i should pull it again and set the endplay? it's like a mm, not a quarter inch like in this post.

Wed May 14, 2008 8:29 am

To me it sounds like a light ball-peen hammer rapidly hitting a muffled solid object. You can feel it in the shifter constantly. 1/4 inch and it's shot. The front main dowel has probably egged the case and the case is hammered too deep to oversize the thrust cut.

Wed May 14, 2008 5:35 pm

will it make any kind of noise at idle, or only when starting off or under a load? i can hear some type of noise inside the bus, almost like something underneeth is loose.

Wed May 14, 2008 7:39 pm

It gets louder without a load but only is completely quiet when the clutch is depressed.

Thu May 15, 2008 4:52 am

ok it makes the same noise at idle w/the clutch depressed, so i am thinking that's not the noise i am hearing.

Thu May 15, 2008 6:47 am

davebuckholts wrote: Pull the flywheel and check the rear main bearing. If the movement is coming from the bearing to case fit, no amount of shims is going to tighten the play up. If not , set the end play and let it ride.

YWHS! :roll:

A quarter inch is NOT "end play"! I bet a sixpack of Coronas that the main bearing is floating on the case at that point. An engine in that condition, if running, is only good as an emergency temporary replacement. Though it can still produce enough power to get you going from here to there, it's only a matter of when not if it will totally crap out on you. :(

I've had a number of such examples, the latest being the Gutless Wonder. I just had it fired up last weekend and decided to just keep it as a spare. If you want an engine to last any considerable amount of time, start with a fresh case or at the very least have your best one checked and/or worked on whatever it needs to be rebuilt. Don't trust yourself on the looks of it, have it tested for cracks and such. I was going to say "don't ask me how I know" but will tell you anyways. Had $600 work done on a case simply on my word that it was good. Turned out to have a slow but steady oil leak which spread all over the engine compartment to the point of having to wash it all every damn weekend! :x

Less than 6 months later I threw the forkin case away and bought a new one! :?

Thu May 15, 2008 8:45 am

StockNazi wrote: ok it makes the same noise at idle w/the clutch depressed, so i am thinking that's not the noise i am hearing.

I see you're only talking 1mm so you might get to shim it or the case might be savable. A wild guess on your sound might be cam-bearing slop or a severely stuck lifter. Can you determine the frequency, i.e. is it every 1/4 rpm, every 1/2 rpm, or every rpm, or?