TheSamba.com

411/412 :: RE: Important parts issue

Author: raygreenwood
Posted: Yesterday 7:15 am (GMT -7)
Topic Replies: 2

A little more update.

All of you who own type 4 004 manual transmissions will have this problem so I hope you are reading this thread.

The pinion shaft bearings are very tricky to replace and adjust preload on this car. Thats not the issue at hand.

The issue is getting the bearing. My last complete (nearly) rebuild on one of these boxes was actually about 1998. By that I mean last time I had to do the differential.

I had to go back through my notebooks to find that I had the same issue then as I had now on this same transmission. I had to leave the original bearings in it (which were in about 70% condition at the time... serviceable but wearing normally).

The issue is that these bearings are pretty much unobtanium. I am working with suppliers right now.

The outer race part # is obtainable. It is M86610. That is an SKF part # but I believe theTimkin part # is LM 86610.

The large danger is that is you will try to order the bearing you need for the 4 speed by using the outer race #......a bearing supplier will tell you that the bearing cone that goes with it is M86649 in SKF or LM86649 in Timkin....and that its the same as the pinion bearing for the automatic.

Sadly....only the outer race of the type 4 pinion bearing sets are the same part # as the outer races of the automatic transmission pinion bearing set.

You will end up buying this bearing...happily going home and visually comparing it to the one that came out of your transmission...and then try to install it with a press.....and quickly destroy the mainshaft trying to press it on.

The correct BEARING CONE part # for the 004 manual transmission is 331457 in either SKF or FAG. The race part # of M86610 is correct.

The bearings are identical except that 331457...the correct bearing...is .0025" LARGER in inner shaft diameter.

This is a unique bearing set. If you find them...they will likely be $60-80 each. At that price they are a bargain.

I am exhausting my two best bearing sources this week. If I cannot find them....I will be investigating what is required to grind or mill those two shaft areas down by .0025" to allow installing the more readily available 86649 bearing.

To make it simple...the ring and pinion bearings should ALWAYS be replaced in these units whenever significant work is done....or even when just opening up and checking because everything in the world right now is 40 years old. When these wear out...and they are a wear item....it will eventually destroy the ring and pinion.

The automatic is slightly less susceptible to wear even though it has the same design...because the gear carrier for the differential has less flex. Its cast steel. Ray

411/412 :: RE: Important parts issue

Author: kirk knighton
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:27 pm (GMT -7)
Topic Replies: 2

Thanks for the rant, Ray!
I've owned five type-4s since 1984; I still have three. Looking for parts has been a hobby, almost a lifestyle of mine for the past 12 years. I've accumulated a pretty good collection. You never know when you might need them. When my L-Jet 412 was on the fritz this past year I tried everything. Finally I took it to the shop along with a bunch of FI parts I have stored up over the years. Turned out the major problem was one of the parts I happened to have - obsolete, of course. But I had a NOS one and the problem was solved.

411/412 :: Important parts issue

Author: raygreenwood
Subject: Important parts issue
Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 7:58 pm (GMT -7)
Topic Replies: 2

I rant a lot. I'm long winded....but I have been owning, driving and working 411 and 412 cars for 34 years now.
I want to appeal to those of you who are serious type 4 owners....not just got one for cheap or by accident or wanting to take one on for a project.

I am in my garage posting this. My only message is...........buy parts if you are serious about keeping these cars on the road. I mean buy them now...long before you need them. I don't mean trim, interior, sheet metal and light fixtures.....those count too.....but I mean serious one of a kind suspension parts, suspension joints ......and most especially wheel bearings and transmission bearings. I like to buy brick and mortar to support the cause...but in this case...F that. Get them where you can...and buy quality. Put aside from beer and food and spend the occasional $30 for the future.

Do you even know the part #s for your rear wheel bearings, ring and pinion bearings?

I can tell you this. I have better part stocks than most....but if you do not have pini8n bearings for your 004....and you WILL. need them.......you will have a very, very, very hard time finding them....ad almost as hard of a time finding quality ring gear bearings with equally hard to find rear wheel bearings.

They are out there. The rear wheel bearings fit about 10 vehicles....but they are all old. E bay shows plenty of listings for differntial bearings...but few are "differntial quality".

Old stock made in France Timkin is your lowest denominator. SKF is great.....but very suspect lately if they are new....with the huge India counterfeit crisis. FAG are gold. I just scored last week 4 old stock Timkins with races...in the boxes...so old they have no bar codes. Those we're made in France and are as good as any.

The pinion bearings are very hard. The VW #s and crossmatch #s are worthless. You will need SKF or Timken #s to. Find anything. Also they take a different race than is normally sold with that bearing so you need both #s..

Buy these parts now when you spare cash. Or...you may be screwed when you need them.

I also just bought two timkin diff bearinds....no races...but $10 each. Yes they are the same as for an 091 tranny....but quality is getting really hard to get....and I can tell you from tearing into many of these units....that you MUST have quality bearings or it will destroy things you cannot replae.

Another example... I just bought two type 4 steering dampers at $25 eacg. Get them while you can. I built a special bracket 15 years ago to use two end to end. Huge improvment in steering control....and it quadruples tthe life of both of the units...because neither is working that hard. Ray