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Type 1 upright in a Type 3
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squizy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:02 pm    Post subject: Type 1 upright in a Type 3 Reply with quote

I've seen plenty of pics of Type 1 upright motors in Type 3's. Can anyone tell me if this configuration is reliable given the different fan locations and bellows setup?

I can gt my hands on a 2110 Type 1, and am wondering whether to bolt straight in, or should I look to converting it to a flat setup?
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bugginmiami
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well where do we start. Ill say its a bad idea, but others will disagree. If yours is a later model car, the motor wont have the bolts on the bottom youneed to mount the mustache bar. If its not a universal case, it wont have the place to put the oil in as well (conversion) Putting it in upright is a bad plan as far as cooling, converting it is a much better plan. Cooling a 2110 isnt a walk in the part, if your weather is hot there (it is?) then it better be right or youll burn it up. I hate type 3's with uprights, did i mention that? Ive seen fastbacks and notches like that. I dont see how they cool right and i think its fugly. If you do it, get all the t3 cooling bits, and add an oil cooler and proper tins and check cr. And put a gauge.. or just get a beetle.
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FASTBACKDON
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Can tell you it will work but run hot too hot converting the sheet metal is easy just need to hunt down the parts they are always in the classifieds here and at a decent price what type of car a fastback notch ar squareback? where are you located at?
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squizy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick reply guys.

It's a 65 Australian built Notchback. I haven't bought it yet, but also have the opportunity of buying the 2110 - so I was thinking of combining the 2. Very Happy

So by the sounds of it, best hunt down some short manifolds, linkages, and associated tinware?
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bugginmiami
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you do get the 2, yes convert the 2110 to t3 cooling. Id yank it apart and check the CR unless you have the specs on it. Id probably lower it a bit depending on your temps there and drving habits requirements. If it has ida's, forget about hiding them. You can get 40s/44s to clear but sometimes its a mission and you will lose some power with the short manifolds, which might not be short enough. And you have to put iddy biddy stacks and filters, which still might hit the body. Youll need to get a oil breather that you can add oil in (unless its a universal case, check). Make sure all cooling is in place (things between cylinders on bottom, not the t3 specific ones necesarily). A good diagram on Martins page (theddb.com i think?). If it full flow mount a nice cooler in the tranny, check the timing and it should surive.
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turdburger
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a guy with an upright T3, i can also tell you some benefits!

1) It will run nice and cool, even better than pancake if you fabricate some metal round the engine bay and seal it off with a bus engine foam

2) You can have the biggest carbs and manifolds in the world if ya want, no restrictions

3) You can also go to town on the compression ratio etc and build a stomper. I ran a 15.2 with an upright 1776 in a full weight, seats 'n all, with really hard old mud and snows

4) Pancake fan strengthening and balencing can be costly and should be done for a decent motor build

5) Your buying an upright, you've already got the tinware, and you can always pop it in a bug/bus etc if ya want.

But saying that, there are plenty of cons too, and still a fair bit of messing about to do to put an upright in properly. I have some pictures and more info if ya want it, drop me a pm with your email.
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surftypeman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:11 am    Post subject: upright in a 3 Reply with quote

so then,

lots of talk about overheating and all with an upright in a type 3- just curious about the baja-bug scenario. there is like no cooling tin and these guys are doing the baja 1000 in high temps and seem to be fine. is it just the ambient temp that keeps em cool?

and then to all the jack holes and new user haters....you guys are really flexing that intelectual muscle of yours with all the facitious comments about the search button and topics being covered and whatnot. if you were all so brilliant you wouldnt need the forums. man it must be sooo taxing to reply about lowering your ride or whatever. start your own forum.
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vwfye
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i would ask kris lauffer of vw paradise about all the socalled overheating issues with a type 3 and big engines. he ran a 2332cc type 3 cooling system engine in his blue notchback for several years, drove it to phoenix and back from so cal and ran some descent compression and didn't have heating issues.
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SquareTone
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: upright in a 3 Reply with quote

surftypeman wrote:
so then,

lots of talk about overheating and all with an upright in a type 3- just curious about the baja-bug scenario. there is like no cooling tin and these guys are doing the baja 1000 in high temps and seem to be fine. is it just the ambient temp that keeps em cool?

It's an airflow issue. Bajas can get air from every direction. Bugs and uprights were designed together to put air where the engine needs it (sort of - check all of the aftermarket stuff to provide more air to a bug engine). Type3s deliver cooling air to bottom rear of the engine compartment which is not where an upright needs it, but works just fine for the pancake engine.
Besides the heating problems you put a lot of noise and possibly fumes into the cabin, and ruin your rear trunk.
Quote:
and then to all the jack holes and new user haters....you guys are really flexing that intelectual muscle of yours with all the facitious comments about the search button and topics being covered and whatnot. if you were all so brilliant you wouldnt need the forums. man it must be sooo taxing to reply about lowering your ride or whatever. start your own forum.

The search button lets you see all that's been said about the topic in the past - without filling up the forum with endless repeats of the same posts. I've been on this forum for a couple of years, and I use the search at least a couple of times a week. Works kind of like an encyclopedia for T3s.
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Air-Cooled Head
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: upright in a 3 Reply with quote

SquareTone wrote:

The search button lets you see all that's been said about the topic in the past - without filling up the forum with endless repeats of the same posts. I've been on this forum for a couple of years, and I use the search at least a couple of times a week. Works kind of like an encyclopedia for T3s.


In defense of Us "jackholes" that use the search feature:

I have NOT had to ask so many questions, because I found the answer by searching.
I have NOT had to ask so many questions, because the answer is in the Bentley!

If YOU were so brilliant, you'd realize that YOU DON'T have an original question. Is it taxing to answer the same question 847,5968,987,312 times? YES!
Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet? Get it?

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surftypeman
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: search and taxing questions Reply with quote

if the same question was posed repeatedly by the same person then your "are we there yet" scenario would make sense.

if its so taxing to answer, dont.

as the search button is very in-organic, its quite possible that some inqueries like the human touch and prefer a somewhat "live" response.
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Air_Cooled_Nut
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we there yet? Very Happy

turdburger wrote:
..
1) It will run nice and cool, even better than pancake if you fabricate some metal round the engine bay and seal it off with a bus engine foam

Even better? Too much cooling is bad for an engine if it can't stay at operating temp. And really, I can count on two fingers the number of people who would actually take the time to custom fab the proper sheet metal sealing tin. I've never even seen a T1 into T3 with any form of sealing tin. If any one has pictures then post them, it'll be a first for me.

Quote:
2) You can have the biggest carbs and manifolds in the world if ya want, no restrictions

Yup. Very nice...that is a bonus! Smile It's just too bad an upright engine wastes all that rear trunk space and typically adds heat and noise into the cabin. Plus dust. Plus a mess if you should ever spring an oil leak.

Quote:
3) You can also go to town on the compression ratio etc and build a stomper. I ran a 15.2 with an upright 1776 in a full weight, seats 'n all, with really hard old mud and snows

Well, it can be done even with a pancake. But expect both engines to have a shorter lifespan.

Quote:
4) Pancake fan strengthening and balencing can be costly and should be done for a decent motor build

Naw. I've spun my ORIGINAL STOCK fan in my 2007cc over 6 grand multiple times and it's still holding strong. And it's not that expensive. Any quality engine build, stock or performance, should be balanced. That should go without saying. Besides, if a T3 loses it's belt, no big deal as the engine continues to get cooled. A T1 is at a serious loss when it loses a belt!

Personally, I think it looks bad. I don't care how pretty it looks or how powerful the engine is, it still looks like a hack job to me and totally destroys the original design/purpose of the pancake idea. Might as well install some other engine like a water-cooled unit. I appreciate the engineering and skill of a performance pancake because that takes more talent.
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squizy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all of those with their positive responses. Once the sale of my old car is complete (touch wood), I'll know exactly what direction I will be taking.

As for the other conversations that have gone on in this thread that I've missed as they been deleted about Newbies and Searching.....as a Newbie to the Forums, doesn't mean that I'm a Newbie to VWs or The Samba for that matter. That the egoists would like to pigeonhole my 20 years VW experience based upon my forum status is laughable. That I need to ask a question on something I never done before and didn't actually "search" doesn't make me or anyone else less of a person....or less of a dubber for that matter.

Funny actually, that on www.aussieveedubbers.com we greet all newbies with open arms and friendly direction.

Chill.
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SquareTone
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're taking it all wrong. We love noobs here. We were all noobs once - when I look in my driveway I think I still am.
We're just trying to make sure you get the most out of of an incredible resource. It's true that some people can get a little harsh about it at times - especially when the noob barks back instead of saying "Thanks. I'll try the search button." It didn't help that you that you started out with a really contentious subject.
Even after all that's been said here you should still try the search. There's a lot of stuff on this topic that hasn't come up in this thread.
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: upright in a 3 Reply with quote

Air-Cooled Head wrote:
SquareTone wrote:

The search button lets you see all that's been said about the topic in the past - without filling up the forum with endless repeats of the same posts. I've been on this forum for a couple of years, and I use the search at least a couple of times a week. Works kind of like an encyclopedia for T3s.


In defense of Us "jackholes" that use the search feature:

I have NOT had to ask so many questions, because I found the answer by searching.
I have NOT had to ask so many questions, because the answer is in the Bentley!

If YOU were so brilliant, you'd realize that YOU DON'T have an original question. Is it taxing to answer the same question 847,5968,987,312 times? YES!
Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet?Are we there yet? Get it?

Read my tagline!



I tend to consider most of the repeats a refresher coarse, but I do agree that some of it gets repetative, but I do agree that some of it gets repetative.

I just flex my right to choose and skip the post. Wink If its been covered and covered and we keep posting it up and covering it some more, then there wont just be alot of coverage on it but a whole lota coverage on it. Wink
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turdburger
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Air_Cooled_Nut"]Are we there yet? Very Happy quote]

Calm down man! It's all opinion anyway. I've got an upright, and i'm happy, you obviously dont, and get ready to count with three fingers baby!

I chose upright simply because after talking to quite a few well known builders, it seemed a better idea for a wild engine. Personally, I'd rather see my pretty engine and some big beef carbs on big beef manifolds than luggage!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SquareTone wrote:
You're taking it all wrong. We love noobs here. We were all noobs once - when I look in my driveway I think I still am.
We're just trying to make sure you get the most out of of an incredible resource. It's true that some people can get a little harsh about it at times - especially when the noob barks back instead of saying "Thanks. I'll try the search button." It didn't help that you that you started out with a really contentious subject.
Even after all that's been said here you should still try the search. There's a lot of stuff on this topic that hasn't come up in this thread.


Tony, for a noobie you've got a lot going on. Shocked What you said made the most sense out of what's been going on in this topic. Rolling Eyes I'm running a converted upright engine in my Notch. What I mean by this, is that the engine started out as a 73 bug engine, but got all that tin stripped off, and type3 cooling shrouds and tin installed in the t-1's place. This engine has been running great since 1995 when I first had it in my wife's Fastback. Someday I'll replace it with a correct t-3 based case, but as long as it's running fine, it's going to stay. Twisted Evil

And Turdburger, what do you do when you need to haul luggage for 2 people that are going to be gone for over 5 days?? I use my rear trunk, since loading the front one gets the lowered front even closer to the ground. Besides, I keep my tools and cleaning supplies in the front trunk. Twisted Evil I didn't notice any ill effects like that when I went to the 2004 Invasion, and that was a nice little 1280 mile round trip ride (just me and the wife). Cool Just something to think about. Wink
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turdburger
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:


And Turdburger, what do you do when you need to haul luggage for 2 people that are going to be gone for over 5 days??


Easy, I simply wear as many clothes as I can fit on and take 2 pairs of extra underpants Very Happy My passengers do the same, although they're only allowed one pair of extra underpants to save space!
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squizy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool guys. Very Happy Thanks for all the tips. The sale of my Cab fell through, so at the moment plans are a little up in the air. There's certainly many different thoughts on this, but as people have run with this arrangement, it may be an option for me to look into - taking on board things mentioned here and in other posts.
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