Engine conversions / frame reinforcement

[Letterman7]

Hello, all.
I've finally been able to locate and hopefully will soon own a kit that I have been after for awhile. It's based on a '66 pan, swing axle tranny, and has a 1300 that's been upgraded to a 1600 motor. It's been sitting quite a while, so I don't want to flog it too hard. But, I do want this to be a daily driver, so, the question is: has anyone converted to another motor assembly via a Kennedy adapter? I'm toying with a small 4 cylinder GM or Toyota setup - nothing against Bug motors or Type 4's; I feel that for everyday reliability, a basic watercooled motor will suffice. I'm not looking for horsepower - just enough to keep up with the 70mph traffic I face every day.
The real question is how does one reinforce the frame and attach motor mount points for an alternative motor? Does the stock VW transaxle have enough beef to hold a motor on it's 4 mounting bolts that would probably weigh more than the standard pancake motor? I've seen pictures of the VW pans with Chevy V-8's in them, but they never show the mounting brackets.
Any leads/info/pics would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[Al Dog]

I've been looking in to this as well. I want to use a 2.3L inline 4 Ford engine with an Esslinger Engineering adaptor....are those little chebby and toyota engines found for pretty cheap? how much do the kennedy adaptors run?

[Travis]

go to www.shoptalkforums.com and go to conversion perversions, there is quite a bit of info, and many knowledgeable people.

[Letterman7]

Al Dog - I don't know much past the name of the adapter you mentioned. I imagine that they are similar to Kennedy. From Kennedy's website, most of their adapters run from $400-$600.
Chevy's performance website has crate 4 cylinders as replacements for the S-10 2.5's for about $1500. Not bad at all for a brand new motor! I'm still hunting down new Toyota's, though. I don't like buying used stuff, especially those items that need expensive periodic maintenance (like timing belts!). I'm very intrigued with the Mazda rotary, though. I may even go that route, since the engine is almost the same size and weight.
Travis - I heard about that site, and haven't checked into it, yet. I will in the next day or so. Thanks!

[Letterman7]

Well, not that different. Just finished after many hours reading the 'Conversion Perversions' on ShopTalkForums, and most of the conversions were based around type4's, Porsche 6's, Subaru, and Mazda rotary. All of which is fine, but now I'm a little skittish on the rotarys due to the heat problems.
There was some chatter about adding struts and strengthening the frames to support different motors, but nobody had really descibed it or had photos, except for one fellow who had excellent shots of his Mazda conversion.
Which leads me back to a basic GM 2.8 or 3.1 (gotta measure to see if it will fit first). Has anyone performed a conversion with these motors?

[Butters]

I'm running a 2.0 Pinto in my baja. I picked up the adaptor and flywheel used but I think that stuff runs somewhere around $400. Trans straps are a must. I welded some brackets to the engine cage to work with the stock motor mounts. I get pretty good power (stock crank and rods, a little head work and a Holley 4-barrel) but I don't really know if its worth it. The extra weight is noticable and the whole radiator thing sucks. I have a type 4 in my square back that I like a whole lot better.

[bljones]

for regular commuter use i'd stay with the aircooled engine- simply from a KISS standpoint. getting decent cooling airflow past a radiator in a kit that wasn't designed for it is just begging for trouble. Many conversions are attempted, damn few are completed, and there is a reason why. additionally, you are going to dramatically increase your rear weight bias, making the front end prone to lift. couple that with the fact that you are looking at doing this with a kit (which already has a much lighter than stock front end), and you'll find it a real handful at 40 on damp roads, let alone cruising at 70.
_________________
OG JHC
Author of Original Rant #1
"It stingd itself to dead... now that is control on you"

2%

[Letterman7]

Good point on the weight bias. The entire car weighs just under 2000 lbs. I've been following a conversion on the shoptalk forums with a guy who put an EcoTec motor in his van. The motor weighs slightly more than the stock VW unit (around 300 #'s), so I'm kind of turned on to that as an option. The only reason for a conversion at all is a) I'm still not willing to be adjusting valves every other month and b) being the kit is a sport coupe, I wanted something a little more potent and something that the basic mechanic can work on. Air cooled motors and mechanics don't cross paths too often aroound here, and when they do, the costs are high. I feel much safer with a reliable, water-cooled motor that I can run a heater off of and A/C if the car needs it.
I appreciate all the insights, though!

[bljones]

install a hydro lifter type 4 engine- no valve adjustment, and you can build 120 reliable hp easily and end up with lower maintenance than with a water cooled conversion. Even if you stay with a type 1 based engine, valve adjustment is a 1/2 hr task, once a month... and it would take you a half an hour to install the engine. compare that to the amount of time you will spend fabbing, adapting and troublesahooting a conversion, and the trade off doesn't look so bad.
If you're in a major metropolitan center, you are near a VW shop- and beleive me, you think vw's and regular mechanics don't mix well, try handing a conversion to a mechanic- "well, it's a blah blah, adapted to a vw transaxle, with a blah blah radiator, and the wiring harness is a little of vw and a little of blah blah...." expect half of your labour costs to be time spent head scratching.
I don't mean to sound discouraging- but you sound like a guy who would rather drive than wrench. if that's the case, then stick with air-cooled, and have a quality high performance motor built by someone who understands your needs.
Consider the economics as well. for $3500 you could have a GREAT aircooled motor built and installed, and be cruising this summer..... compared to $600 for an adapter, $1500 for a crate engine, $1000 for ancillaries, and $1500 worth of fab work (custom exhaust, engine and rad cradle, rad piping, rad ducting, fan installation), months of build time, and the frustration of troubleshooting overheating, engine management, and electrical glitches.

What kind of kit is it?
_________________
OG JHC
Author of Original Rant #1
"It stingd itself to dead... now that is control on you"

2%

[Butters]

I agree with Mr. Jones (even though he is a bit of a trouble maker ). My type 4 has been as reliable as my pinto engine (if not more) with a lot less hardware. I didn't mind the work that went into the conversion but its a hobby for me. I went watercooled mainly for heat in the car but a VW does allright if you have everything working properly.

[Chris181Westy]

I'm sorry but in my opinion putting a non VW engine in a VW is a sin. If I were to put a watercooled engine in a aircooled based vehicle I would have to go with Rabbit power. But I would save myself a lot of hassle and stay with a aircooled engine. In my opinion there is no engine more reliable than a aircooled VW engine.
_________________
"So we went for a spin in the country
To feel the wind in our hair
To feel the power of my engine
To feel the thrill of desire"
Roger Waters, The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking

[1tallveedub]

I am new to this forum, but have been building Vws for the last 18 years and can tell you to stick with the air cooled motor!You think you will have a problem with mechanics now,wait untill you take your car in for something minor and he tells you something like"well normally it would be no problem,but......you have this wrong and that wrong this should not be this way and the famous I think it is because this didn't come from the factory this way".You are going to have to learn your car anyway,why not go the easy way,the wright way!Stay air cooled!

[Letterman7]

bl - the kit in question is one of the original Sterling California Component Cars, a somewhat valuable find in of itself. And, true, I would rather drive than wrench, but I'm rather hardheaded about doing offbeat ideas. In any case, everyone does have a point about keeping it simple with a Type IV or even a hot Type I. But, I thought the point of this forum was off road & kit cars, which would routinely take oddball motors. Sorry to offend the aircooled fanatics, but there's a reason that no car manufacturer builds them anymore. I don't know what that is, maybe economics, but if they are that reliable, them you would still see them in a mass production capacity rather than in NOS or rebuilts. I didn't want to ruffle feathers - just trying to find as much information as one can before diving into a project.

[bljones]

Letterman, no offense taken here, and don't be afraid to ruffle feathers.
BTW, it's only within the last few years that Porsche stopped building aircooled cars, for one reason only- emissions. it is easier to make a clean(er) car with a liquid cooled design, as you can superheat the combustion chambers. However, the fabled 930, 959 and 993 are all air cooled and provide more performance than the average man could ever handle. the fastest four cylinder drag racer in the world right now is air cooled. something to think about.

I'm not saying don't do it- I'm saying will doing it suit your needs and goals? Sterlings are a car i have always liked because they were/are a great design from a styling standpoint. However, the problem is weight bias. on a vw pan, the sterling is already light in the nose, with no way to mount a radiator up front. to properly install a waterpumper engine, you WILL have to buid a tube chassis that will allow for the radiator and cooling ductwork and piping. The sterling's rear design creates a dead air zone at the tail of the car, which makes a rear mounted rad difficult to cool, in addition to hanging another 50- 100 lbs. at the extreme rear of the car. Therefore a custom chassis is necessary.
Conversions cost. horsepower costs. fabrication costs. how fast do you want to spend? do you want to drive it and enjoy it now, or two years from now? do you want to invest thousands more in the car then you will ever get back out of it if you sell it?

i speak from experience. i have built all sorts of oddballs, from a bradley gt with a mid mounted olds toronado drivetrain to a V-8 powered MG midget. I love the simplicity, tunability and potential of the aircooled engine. It works.... which is more than i can say for some of the frankencars i've built.
_________________
OG JHC
Author of Original Rant #1
"It stingd itself to dead... now that is control on you"

2%

[Letterman7]

Point well taken, bl! I had totally written Porsche off without even thinkin' twice about it. My brother used to own a few of various years and had always complained about the upkeep; I suppose it's the marquee driving the costs.
True what you say of the design - but, like you, I like to tinker. That well in the front between the lights is where the radiator is going. Saw a photo of one with an aluminum LT1 in it, the radiator was fed by small cutouts. But that's really pushing a weight envelope.
And be truthful - even though some of your cars may not have worked, didn't you have fun, if not a learning experience from them? And is that not the point of owning a kit?
I'll keep everyone posted. I won't even have the car until mid May!

[Butters]

Another thing to consider is vibration. I don't know about all waterpumpers, but I can tell you the Pinto engine will rattle your teeth out. I have urethane mounts, rubber encased trans straps, and rubber motor mounts, and it vibrates more than a vw engine with solid mounts. Esslingers have a catalog that lists lots of engines that they make adaptors for. They give the pros and cons of a lot of engines. (They were right about the Pinto for sure). Mines in a baja so its a little easier to deal with.

[Letterman7]

Thanks, Butters, I'll definately keep that in mind as well. What's the point of having something different if it's going to shake the fiberglass to pieces? With your Pinto power, I'd have to worry about rear end collisions....just kidding....

[bljones]

okay, if you mount the radiator up front, now you have to route about 20 feet of coolant line- do you run it under the pan, and wince everytime you go over a speed bump, or do you run it in the cavities alongside the cockpit, where it increases the cockpit heat? oh yeah, and you still have to deal with an additional 150-200 lbs of weight hanging off the extreme rear end of the car... and deal with the camber changes that will result, since you are using a swingaxle transaxle and pan. you've just added approximately 10% to the weight of the car, the majority of it at the heavy end.
I wouldn't do this without custom fabbing a new chassis. then you can set the components up to distribute the weight properly, run lines safely, and actually have a platform DESIGNED for a rear engined watercooled car. Then i would replace the swing axle with an IRS rear end... or if you wanted to go five speed, you could install a 911 transaxle.

Letterman, i'll compromise with you- I'll build you a better than decent engine for your car for the cost of parts, machining and shipping- slap it in, and drive it this summer. meanwhile- you build a chassis to to put the body on, that incorporates all the changes you want to make. Then you can put the body on your new chassis when it is done, and sell your old pan and engine.....

When (by what date) do you want to have the car finished, and driving? how much work are you able to do yourself? what is your budget?

I realized as i was building the frankencars i built ,letterman, that i was employing rube goldberg solutions to solve simple problems- i was the doctor evil of the car modifying world- you know, the guy with all the elaborate plans to take over the world, doomed to failure? Most of the reasons were because i didn't ask, and answer, those three questions above. My budget was rarely as big as my dreams, and i would never even CONSIDER putting a lot of the stuff i built on the road after i was done- simply because there were too many compromises made in the name of "what if?" yeah, you can put a big engine in an MG midget, if you don't mind butchering hacking, fiddling, re-fiddling, more butchering--but don't expect to actually be able to drive it anywhere near the edge of it's horsepower envelope safely. If the end result is you build a car that won't go over 75 without endangering your life, the car's life, or the life of those you share the road with... why not stay with the original version which could do 75 all day long, without any unintentional sphincter-puckering?

Do you want a project that may never be finished, or do you want a very cool car that handles better, rides better, has some power and some creature comforts? You can add a/c to a VW air-cooled engine. you can RELIABLY increase the hp of a stock engine by 100% for less than the cost of the basic parts for a conversion, not even counting fab work and tuning time and costs... and you could be driving it this summer. As i said, think about my compromise- build a driver while you work on the project.
_________________
OG JHC
Author of Original Rant #1
"It stingd itself to dead... now that is control on you"

2%

[Panelfantastic]

Very valid points. Definately a real world opinion.
I just thought I would add a few things that swayed me...
All aluminum engine that weighs 275lbs. Not sure how that compares with a type I but having wrestled both in and out of my truck, they felt similar.
Factory fuel injection. No guesswork.
170hp. Stock. What would it cost to build 170 VW hp that would go 100k without turning the first screw?
Harness has a factory ADL plug that will accept any GM diagnostic scan or with a cable, my laptop. Everything is stock GM, serviceable at any GM dealer if necessary.
A/C is no problem.
Real heat is no problem. (you guys are gonna skin me for that one )
On the negative side...
There are a lot of small things to fit/fabricate. I've done most in my garage with simple tools.
Adapter did cost money.
ECU and harness did cost money, but it is completely plug and play, three wire hookup. A factory harness could be used but you would really have to know it inside out...
170hp... your tranny will not like it.
170hp....factory brakes will not be effective.

Please feel free to argue any point or disagree in general.
This kind of thing really needs to be thought out completely and both sides presented fully.


_________________
-----------------------------
Your comment reminds me of the timing on a turbo engine....

[bljones]

Neat bit of conversion!

A bus is a different ballgame- less headscratching about where/how to locate radiator, better front/ rear weight bias.

275 lbs? is that turnkey or longblock minus bolt ons? turnkey type 1 is about 225 lbs, if i dismember right. So,without adapter, subframe, rad, fans, etc, at least 50 lbs more.

How about wiring- any issues with the fuel injection because the exhaust is completely different? I'm thinking sensors, etc., that may require resetting.
How about cooling?



Dead on about the tranny- more power is no good if it doesn't get to the ground.

How long did it take? What tools did you need?


I'm no diehard- i love a good conversion, IF it is a better solution to the speed/fun problem- but if it doesn't solve the problem, it's just another white elephant.
_________________
OG JHC
Author of Original Rant #1
"It stingd itself to dead... now that is control on you"

2%