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ccpalmer 
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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 Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: popping the clutch to start the engine... |
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Yesterday I went to take out my '71 Bus which has a 1600dp engine with 70-amp alternator installed. Like many others with this set-up, my generator dash light stays on for a few seconds after I start the car.
My battery was dead from leaving my sub-woofer on, so I went to push-start the Bus and it would not fire up. I've owned many a Bus and they all have had no problem starting right up with a push-start.
I figure that for some reason the alternator doesn't want to make any juice at all at first. Anyone know why?
I always liked the push-start plan B option and wonder if it doesn't work with this alternator set-up? Anyone else ever had this "issue"?
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'77 Bay/rusty shed on wheels
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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An alternator needs power to start making power, a generator creates it's own.
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TheTominator
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
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If your battery is totally shot/drained, the bus would not jump off. Think of it like this, if you did not have a battery installed, it won't jump off. Also, the dash lights in all vehicles stay on for a few seconds. This is to show you that the bulbs are not burned out.
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71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
An Oldsmobile for crying out loud. |
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NASkeet
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Joined: April 29, 2006
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Location: Canvey Island, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Re: popping the clutch to start the engine... |
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| ccpalmer wrote: | Yesterday I went to take out my '71 Bus which has a 1600dp engine with 70-amp alternator installed. Like many others with this set-up, my generator dash light stays on for a few seconds after I start the car.
My battery was dead from leaving my sub-woofer on, so I went to push-start the Bus and it would not fire up. I've owned many a Bus and they all have had no problem starting right up with a push-start.
I figure that for some reason the alternator doesn't want to make any juice at all at first. Anyone know why?
I always liked the push-start plan B option and wonder if it doesn't work with this alternator set-up? Anyone else ever had this "issue"? |
Push-starting or crank-handle starting, merely turns the engine over at very slow revs, pumping a small quantity of fuel, plus triggering the ignition system a few times. The engine needs to be turning over so that it both gains rotational momentum and induces a fuel-air mixture into the cylinders, so that when the spark plugs finally ignite the fuel-air mixture, this is able sustain an already revving engine.
However, unless the battery alone, still has just sufficient EMF and stored charge, in the absence of all other electrical loads, to adequately operate the ignition system, providing sufficient voltage and current, for an adequate spark at the spark plugs, the engine will not start. It seems that your battery had discharged to such an extent, that it could not supply the meagre few amps, at modest voltage (typically 9V, or perhaps slightly less), to power the ignition system.
No alternator or dynamo, will provide significant EMF or current, at the the engine revs attainable, during push-starting or crank-handle starting, but it might just be possible to get sufficient voltage and current, out of several torch (i.e. flashlight, in USA parlance) batteries, connected in parallel and series. I think a typical ignition system, requires a supply current of somewhere between 1 & 4 amps.
P.S.
I commonly depress the clutch when starting, especially in cold weather, to minimise the load on the starter motor, associated with turning over the transmission in neutral, when the transmission oil is cold and viscous.
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Nigel A. Skeet
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Last edited by NASkeet on Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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keifernet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Like stated... that is one drawback to alternator system... if battery is completely dead or super low you can't push start it but you can on uprights with a generator.
Plan B for those who converted to alt on 71 and earlier and for later buses would be one of those nifty portable battery jump start packs... They have come way down in price now.
http://www.batteryterminal.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=72
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NASkeet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| keifernet wrote: | Like stated... that is one drawback to alternator system... if battery is completely dead or super low you can't push start it but you can on uprights with a generator.
Plan B for those who converted to alt on 71 and earlier and for later buses would be one of those nifty portable battery jump start packs... They have come way down in price now.
http://www.batteryterminal.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=72 |
To the best of my recall, the 1974 Toyota Hiace Mk. 1, was equipped with an alternator, plus various other 1970s vintage cars, which I have assisted in successfully push starting!
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Nigel A. Skeet
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Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
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TheTominator
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Can't say for Europe Nigel. But not many vehicles on this side of the pond sold with a generator since the 50's, or early 60's.
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"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
If I can't curse, I can't fix it.
71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
An Oldsmobile for crying out loud. |
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keifernet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| NASkeet wrote: | | keifernet wrote: | Like stated... that is one drawback to alternator system... if battery is completely dead or super low you can't push start it but you can on uprights with a generator.
Plan B for those who converted to alt on 71 and earlier and for later buses would be one of those nifty portable battery jump start packs... They have come way down in price now.
http://www.batteryterminal.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=72 |
To the best of my recall, the 1974 Toyota Hiace Mk. 1, was equipped with an alternator, plus various other 1970s vintage cars, which I have assisted in successfully push starting! |
Was the battery completely dead? If not there may well have been enough residual voltage present to excite the alt.
If it was just a starter problem then sure you can push start no problem. Semi dead battery ( still some lights and slow Rrrrrr.rrrrr.rrr cranking... maybe. )
NOTHING... no lights dead battery/flat if you have an alt don't waste your time or energy... you need a jump start. If you have a generator/dynamo then you can still push start.
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ccpalmer
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Yep, my battery was completely dead - not even any dash lights. So that must be it. 'Cause I've push-started an alternator engine many a time..
So it's good to know I can still push-start with a weak battery when needed!
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'71 Westy
'77 Bay/rusty shed on wheels
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Cocobolo Co., LLC
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TheTominator
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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One more thought. If trying to start a vehicle with the help of another running vehicle, and copper cables connecting the batteries of both. Leave them connected for about ten minutes. Then start it up.
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"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth" Albert Einstein - 1901
If I can't curse, I can't fix it.
71 Bus
78 HD FXS Lowrider 1200cc
An Oldsmobile for crying out loud. |
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Or put in an isolated aux. battery for the sound system 
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keifernet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| ccpalmer wrote: | Yep, my battery was completely dead - not even any dash lights. So that must be it. 'Cause I've push-started an alternator engine many a time..
So it's good to know I can still push-start with a weak battery when needed! |
Actually Chris I was asking Nigel if the battery on the old cars he was talking about was completely dead or not.
In my experience if the battery is so flat the starter wont click or barely turn over you probably don't have enough voltage to excite the alt and push start it. I know for sure ( just as you found out) that a completely dead battery does not have a chance to get it push started.
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ccpalmer
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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See; that'd be like carrying jumper cables in the Bus, which I was always too proud to do. Never really needed them...
But I have seen the jump start packs, and I'd probably invest my money in one of those before I did jumper cables.
I was just so used to driving my Bus everyday... a week off and bye bye battery! ('cause I just leave the sub on normally) Even my Toyota creaks and moans when I haven't driven it for a week or two!
And I've been planning on re-wiring the sub so that it turns off with the ignition.
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'77 Bay/rusty shed on wheels
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ccpalmer
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: | | Or put in an isolated aux. battery for the sound system |
Nah - I'm not one of those blare-the-music-while-camping guys. Mostly just while driving down the road. Or the Michigan fight song for tailgating...
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'77 Bay/rusty shed on wheels
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: |
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If you battery seems completely dead leave the ignition off for several minutes before trying to roll start it, making sure all loads are off. Get it moving and turn the ignition on just as you let out the clutch. This may give you momentarily enough power to get a spark, and get it revved to the self excite rpm for the alternator. If you have FI you will of course need that much more from the battery.
If you have a steep long hill you should be able to get the alternator to self excite just by rolling it fast enough. |
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keifernet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: | If you battery seems completely dead leave the ignition off for several minutes before trying to roll start it, making sure all loads are off. Get it moving and turn the ignition on just as you let out the clutch. This may give you momentarily enough power to get a spark, and get it revved to the self excite rpm for the alternator. If you have FI you will of course need that much more from the battery.
If you have a steep long hill you should be able to get the alternator to self excite just by rolling it fast enough. |
I think I saw that in a B movie once!  
I hate to admit it being sort of old school myself but those damn battery jump start things are really handy... ( they can run other stuff as backup and charge cell phones etc with the ciggie lighter plug in) and now that they can be had for much less than the 100 they used to cost... why not? 
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ccpalmer
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| keifernet wrote: |
I hate to admit it being sort of old school myself but those damn battery jump start things are really handy... ( they can run other stuff as backup and charge cell phones etc with the ciggie lighter plug in) and now that they can be had for much less than the 100 they used to cost... why not? |
That is a nifty side-benefit - my '71 doesn't have a cig lighter...
Why not? I just spent all my money on an engine!!!
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'77 Bay/rusty shed on wheels
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Cocobolo Co., LLC
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keifernet
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ccpalmer wrote: | | keifernet wrote: |
I hate to admit it being sort of old school myself but those damn battery jump start things are really handy... ( they can run other stuff as backup and charge cell phones etc with the ciggie lighter plug in) and now that they can be had for much less than the 100 they used to cost... why not? |
That is a nifty side-benefit - my '71 doesn't have a cig lighter...
Why not? I just spent all my money on an engine!!! |
BS... I just saved you money on parts for said engine!!!
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creationblue
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I have to depress the clutch peddle on my '70 SP to start it all the time! Its a 3rd vehicle and is only used occasioanlly, but the batt is trickle charged all year, but other than the 1st couple of starts if i dont press the clutch nout happens, not even a click of the solenoid.................strange but true  I stumble on this by accident after hours of head scratching
CB
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| creationblue wrote: | I have to depress the clutch peddle on my '70 SP to start it all the time! Its a 3rd vehicle and is only used occasioanlly, but the batt is trickle charged all year, but other than the 1st couple of starts if i dont press the clutch nout happens, not even a click of the solenoid.................strange but true I stumble on this by accident after hours of head scratching
CB |
Bet your transmission ground strap is broken, dirty or missing, the only other path for ground is through the clutch cable, when you step on it the connections get tight enough to crank.
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