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class 11 roll cage Q?
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bizmarkie
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 4:30 pm    Post subject: class 11 roll cage Q? Reply with quote

Anyone know how thick are the weld it yourself Class 11 cage's?
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baja5
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should be 1.5 inch .095 wall.
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bizmarkie
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

even the main is 0.95?...im thinking of getting it but i think 0.95 isnt that thick..i wonder if i should make my own main
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Nicksan
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.095 is standard and plentythick enough. You can go .120 but you would have to find someone that makes one in that gauge.
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runslikeapenguin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your not racing and you have a roof on your car .095 is fine.
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towd
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now ,, I'm sure you already have,, check the adds,,, see what they say these cages are made of,, Then Watch there video were they will say there cage is thicher , than the add says. ?? Hmmmm

It's Buyer beware ,,,

.095 is great for any open car,, atleast it saved my ass more than once. 120 is better, but gets damn heavy real fast..

I'd still like to know where the hell anyone can buy 090 ....China ???
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90xjlimited4x4
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:53 pm    Post subject: heavy? Reply with quote

haha almost my whole cage is 120 wall......
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MattD-36
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:51 am    Post subject: Re: heavy? Reply with quote

90xjlimited4x4 wrote:
haha almost my whole cage is 120 wall......


haha my WHOLE cage is .120 that is the one thing not to skimp on is safety

haha sorry biz i know i have said it 100's of times lol
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:37 am    Post subject: Re: heavy? Reply with quote

MattD-36 wrote:
90xjlimited4x4 wrote:
haha almost my whole cage is 120 wall......


haha my WHOLE cage is .120 that is the one thing not to skimp on is safety

haha sorry biz i know i have said it 100's of times lol


As a Tech Inspector of many decades and a racer who has won a championship, and a fabricator of many types of race cars including Baja 1000 winners and TransAm winners...
I have NO problems with a 1-1/2" x .095 MILD STEEL roll cage in a baja bug which weighs under 2,000lbs. The cage must be made of proper tubing of at least CREW type, not water pipe or fence pipe or worse. And the design of the cage must be adequate. Diagonal bracing and proper tie-in to the body/chassis structure is needed. Gussets on the top joints, and all joints fully welded with good penetration and no voids or inclusions. No splices without proper inner or outer sleeving and rosette welds. Bend quality and radius are important also.

The Chenowth "Class 11" design of cage is perfectly acceptable.

I have seen a Class 11 racer which was rear-ended by a Class 1 weghing over 4,000 lbs going 100mph faster according to the drivers. The Class 1 got the worst of it by far. The Class 11 came out with a completely destroyed body, but a cage in fine shape. With some upper engine repairs and a fresh rear wheel and tire, the Class 11 could have finished the race.

".090" Tube is pretty much the same as .095" and most all of the tubing is made in China or Korea. The call-out is probably different due to a rounding-off by someone not highly technical. It is within tolerance range anyway.
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towd
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you used this rounding off thing in the last go around about these cages,,, Dude,, steel suppiers DO NOT round off these figures,,,

.083 is almost like .090... .108 is almost like .095 ...

CREW is almost like HREW ,, if there was such a thing ...

120 wall is great,, .090 is not good for any other than light holders,, and those cages in the adds DAMN sure are 090.

why the hell anyone would defend a sud standard cage is beyond me..
what ever Blows your shirt up.
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bizmarkie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not planning on racing.Its basicly for a toy.Im going to add more bracing to the class 11 cage out of .120 ..I think it will be ok...lol maybe?..
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shred625
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will be fine....
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

towd wrote:

".095 is great for any open car,, atleast it saved my ass more than once. 120 is better, but gets damn heavy real fast..

I'd still like to know where the hell anyone can buy 090 ....China ???"


".090 is not good for any other than light holders,, and those cages in the adds DAMN sure are 090.

why the hell anyone would defend a sud standard cage is beyond me..
what ever Blows your shirt up.'



do you have a split personality? or do you just not read what you write?
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KrAzY-BaJa
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the class 11 cage looks like this.
just with a few added bars Very Happy
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

towd wrote:
you used this rounding off thing in the last go around about these cages,,, Dude,, steel suppiers DO NOT round off these figures,,,

.083 is almost like .090... .108 is almost like .095 ...

CREW is almost like HREW ,, if there was such a thing ...

120 wall is great,, .090 is not good for any other than light holders,, and those cages in the adds DAMN sure are 090.

why the hell anyone would defend a sud standard cage is beyond me..
what ever Blows your shirt up.


What has you wound so tight Towd? Calm your rant down! This isn't the Desert Rangers Forum. If you can't be pleasant, you should just ST_U!

Did you actually READ my post ? Or did you just jump to a conclusion again?

Where did you pluck your ASSumption that I said anything at all about a steel supplier rounding off a number? I said "The call-out is probably different due to a rounding-off by someone not highly technical. It is within tolerance range anyway."

The reference was to someone such as a parts RETAILER. NOT a fabricator or steel supplier. However, experience has shown that even sales people at metal supply houses often use incorrect jargon for material thicknesses, confusing fractional or digital thickness with gauge. Some will refer to .095 wall tube as "13 gauge", though that is rather inaccurate.

Furthermore, 1010 CREW tube has a greater wall thickness variance range than A513 DOM. That doesn't mean that I advocate using fence post or whatever ("CREW is almost like HREW ") to build roll cages out of, even for play bugs or buggies.

I never said .083" wall was acceptable. And .108" is substantially thicker than .095".

"120 wall is great,, .090 is not good for any other than light holders,, and those cages in the adds DAMN sure are 090."

Do you say this because you have gone out to many VW supply houses and checked large quantities of the referenced cages? I doubt it! Probably just because the guy at Chirco said so in his little video, where HE ALSO SAID .095!!!!!

What the heck? The guy is building a play bug which has NO RULES to meet! An .065 wall mild steel cage would be a hell of a lot more than NO cage. I rolled my Bug on pavement on a mountain road at 50 mph 35 years ago without any cage or roll bar at all. The only injury was a scratch on my hand from hitting the keys when it went upside down. Fixing the car cost a whole $55, including primer.

The Class 11 car I referred to in my earlier post had an off-the-shelf Chenowth-design Class 11 cage made of CREW. It not only did its job protecting the occupants entirely from harm, it appeared to not even need replacement, though it would probably be wise to do so regardless of appearance.

A friend of mine has a similar cage out of a Baja which some teenagers rolled down the side of a mountain. The welding is horrendous! The rear 1-1/2" x .095 diagonal was replaced with a 1"x.065 'X'. The cage came out undamaged, although the body was completely destroyed and wadded tight around it. Again, the occupants were unhurt.

What roll cage do you have in your car? Photos and specifications! Has it been inpected and tagged?

"why the hell anyone would defend a sud standard cage is beyond me.." (sic)
Since SCORE has called out 1-1/2" x .095 wall tube for race cars weighing up to 2,000lbs since 1973. I started Tech Inspecting for SCORE that year. Have you ever? I have drilled and measured the tubing in literally hundreds of race cars back in the 70s. I have found some with substandard cages. I have found many, even recently, which were not completely welded at joints. I have found lacking braces or inadequate mounting or crappy welds or missing gussets. I have rejected as many as 10% of the total entries for an off road race for roll cage problems. Of those cages which I have inspected and passed in 35 years of off road race Tech inspection and 10 years of SCCA road race Tech before that....NOT ONE has EVER failed in a crash causing injury to anyone! I also did wreck impounds at SCCA races where each race car crashed on the track had to be brought to me for inspection and write-up in its log book. What is your point of reference as an expert on what to call "sud standard"? Define your credentials. Perhaps it is "beyond " you as you say...

Just because you don't think .095 tube is adequate for a Baja Bug, doesn't mean Bizmarkie HAS to build a cage of .120 for his. If he wants .120, fine, although unless Bizmarkie is installing an LS-1 or something like that, 1-1/2" x .095 is fine! Trust me. If you want .120 Towd, go for it. For others, get off it!

The only thing blowing up my shirt is the Mojave Desert wind...What's blowing up your skirt?

Get over it!
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bizmarkie wrote:
im not planning on racing.Its basicly for a toy.Im going to add more bracing to the class 11 cage out of .120 ..I think it will be ok...lol maybe?..


I understand it's not intended to be a racer. What extra bracing are you thinking of? Why do you suspect it would be inadequate?

I have no problem recommending a "Class 11" cage or an Empi 6-point. Either is stout enough material for the basic cage.

I would add structure down to the front beam including tubes from the beam to the rear torsion along the edge of the heater channels. Making sure the rear bumper is tied to the cage would help suppport the bumper from rear hits and from dragging the skidplate. Door bars would be nice for side-impact protection and a cross tube behind your shoulders for the harnesses would be good too. Gussets in the top are recommended. All of these would rank ahead of .120 tubes anywhere in the cage in my view. And all of these can be 1-1/2" x .095, except some 1" x .065 diagonals on the front structure and maybe helping the rear shock mounts.

Remember that all of this is recommendations...NOT rules or requirements!
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bizmarkie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really dont know what to do actually..Its my first baja....I still have other issues to solve before i do the cage.I still have no engine,No gas tank,No rims,No tires,Wire it up,and im sure the brakes are shot or the lines need to be replaced for when i put my class 9 beam on there
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dusty.
090 mild steel worked good for us. We started out with a Class 11 cage and add to it. know we make our own cages
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this after one and a half turns. and they landed back words on the track.
we are coming up on 30 races in 3 years on this car.

best of luck with what ever you build. Dennis[/img]
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bizmarkie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what race were you in?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They have been racing the MORE series this year. it was 2 races ago.
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