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wgargan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

regis101 wrote:
fairweather wrote:
You also need to rebuild/regear your tranny or you'll hate it.


No one thinks of the $2k+ needed for the trans when it's a gas to diesel conversion.


why ruin the idea of the swap Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind here. I know there are lots of people out there who are very happy with their conversions. My personal case of terminal tinker-itis makes me very interested in engineering a conversion project of my own but, my terminal lack of time made me do a plug and play GoWesty 2.2L based on my original 1.9. Which brings me to my point. I've just got to take issue with the OPs "horribly unreliable" statement. Man, 40,000 miles now and not a hiccup. Just runs and runs and runs. Super happy with it. CONSISTENTLY gets 20-22 mpg on the hiway. A best ever of 24 on a 200 mile stretch really holding the line at 65 mph. And that was with a thousand foot elevation gain over the distance. Just had to get my 2 cents worth in here. Smile
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timbo
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2.2 turbo (SmallCar) Subaru conversion (has just turned the 20 000 km mark, (donor had 150,000 km's) Vancouver to LA and daily driving here in Vancouver BC. The only issues I had initially was the coolant system bleed (not too difficult) and since then blew 2 small coolant hoses (my fault for not replacing with new ones).

All in all the time, energy, $$ I would do it again, but in a 4 speed not an automatic. Automatic is great but I think a 4 speed would be that much more fun.


Just my 2 cents............. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

meyervw wrote:
Grizzly_black wrote:
If I am not mistaken, diesel is cheaper than gas in CA. If you were to convert to a subaru the best you will get is around 22 MPG, The z-tec conversion will get about the same. With a TDI you will get 30+ if you re-gear your transmission. Cheaper fuel and better fuel economy. I would focus on a TDI. Check out the TDI vanagon Yahoo group.

Just my thoughts and opinions.
Grizz

Diesel is alot more in Ca. than gas right now.


I was referring to Canada not California. Wink

In Canada diesel is cheaper than gas. Here Montana gas is cheaper than diesel, but if you do the math you can get much further an a tank of diesel and it still ends up being cheaper to run diesel in a Vanagon.

grizz
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

rockandsnowjunkie wrote:
Hello, I'm planning to replace my horribly unreliable 1.9L gas engine in my 1983 vanagon with either a EJ25 or a newer (2002ish) VW TDI engine. With the EJ25 putting out 165hp (with not great fuel economy) and the TDI 90Hp, with a turbo of course, and amazing fuel economy, what (i know this will be conflicting) is a better conversion for resurrecting my defunct vanagon?


Thanks for any advice.


If cost is not an object I would go with the TDI. I feel like the excellent torque characteristics and 26-30 mpg capabilities make this the most desirable conversion for an all around Vanagon.

I've also done several Subaru conversions, and would certainly endorse going this route if cost is more of an issue. The main advantage to the Subaru is that it fits the van really well since it is a boxer layout. The conversion scene for the Subaru continues to evolve and you have to pick and choose which parts to use for the best results, but this can be kind of fun. I would recommend either an early 2.2 conversion or a Phase II (1999>) 2.2 or 2.5 conversion. But, you're right, mpg in the real world is not as good with this conversion as some over enthusiastic people would suggest it to be. It's similar to a wasserboxer, but of course with tons more power.

They're both good options. However, the TDI costs roughly twice what a Subaru conversion does, so that must be a factor.

David
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:

If cost is not an object I would go with the TDI. I feel like the excellent torque characteristics and 26-30 mpg capabilities make this the most desirable conversion for an all around Vanagon.


I almost never get MPGs that bad with my TDI.

I'm not sure where these low mpg rumors started about TDIs, but you should expect at least 32 MPG at 65 MPH, from Idaho to Massachusetts I averaged almost 34 MPG at 67 MPH, those are GPS numbers.
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RichBenn
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grizzly_black wrote:
...If you were to convert to a subaru the best you will get is around 22 MPG,
Grizz...


Well, no, actually the WORST I have ever gotten in my 2.2 Westy Vanaroo is 22 MPG, verified against a GPS. Usually it's 24 or so. I have a manual tansmission, no power steering, no air conditioning, and I don't have wide profile tires, probably like the original poster. Sure the TDI can get you great mileage, and running bio-diesel is way cool, but it's a LOT of money(all said and done), and will never pay back the difference via saved gas money.

The 2.2 is PLENTY of power for a 2WD with manual transmission. The original poster wants mileage AND power, he should also consider a 2.2 instead of a 2.5. With a syncro, most people need the 2.5, but the 2.2 torque curve matches the vanagon 2WD manual tranny perfectly. Alot of 2.5 owners think about regearing their transmission to get mileage back. Hmmm....

That all said, all conversions have their merits and pitfalls. In hindsight, a GoWesty, BostonBob, or 10centlife VW longblock would have been way easier. A TDI would have made me feel much better about my carbon footprint. And a turbo would have made me the envy of some. But I'm quite happy with the 2.2 Subaru, and I'm sure most of the Bostig, TDI, and (quality) VW rebuilds give people satisfaction as well!
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:


I almost never get MPGs that bad with my TDI.

I'm not sure where these low mpg rumors started about TDIs, but you should expect at least 32 MPG at 65 MPH, from Idaho to Massachusetts I averaged almost 34 MPG at 67 MPH, those are GPS numbers.


I'm glad to hear that. At some point I'd like to do a TDI conversion in my 88 Wolfsburg Edition and was hoping it would be a solid 30+ mpg vehicle.

I think these low numbers have shown up several times with people driving converted Syncro Westys with oversized tires. I just stated these numbers because I like to quote things on the conservative side - especially when I'm not quoting figures from my own experience.

What do you get around town, and what kind of gearing are you running?

David
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rockandsnowjunkie
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greatest thanks to all contributors. I've done much research, both here, yahoo group, and various other sources, but just wanted to gauge overall sentiment from people who've done the gauntlet of conversions. Cost is of course a consideration and that really has led me to the Suby conversion as the most viable and the TDI option as the most lusted after - for both eco reasons as well as fuel economy ones (others do exist).

To all the Zetec fans, I've seen the conversion in a Syncro and it was sweet, but again more pricy than a Suby. As for my comment about the original VW 1.9L engine, it's electrical issues have plagued me for the past year to no end and it's underpowered, as someone noted, for the augmented speed limits and demands of an everyday driver.

I really appreciate everyones contributions. I'll be looking into the mechanical tdi pump before committing to likely to the Suby option.

Do any of the Suby converts have advice on the best kit for a fluid conversion?

Thanks again.
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markmc90
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the same stages as you, leaning towards the suby. Check out smallcar.com. They have some good looking kits. But I havent used one so I cant vouch for that.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are my favorite parts for the conversion:

Adaptor and flywheel: In the past I've used the KEP adaptor plate and flywheel, but now the brand new Smallcar conversion bellhousing looks like the way to go. It allows you to use the Subaru flywheel and pressure plate along with the Subaru starter.

Rear engine mount: The Smallcar rear mount is a good layout and keeps everything at the rear very similar to the wbx setup. You can even use the original heat shield. It uses the Vanagon motor mounts, though, and I feel like those are barely up to snuff, but they work acceptably. The other option is to pick up the Subaru mounts with a custom crossbar like the one KEP sells. This is a good setup too, and uses the existing mounting holes on the frame meant for the diesel carrier bars. However, it doesn't provide a mount for the muffler.

Exhaust: The stainless Smallcar header is the only way to go. You can use a stock 2.1 Vanagon J-pipe, cat and muffler to save money, or buy the rest of the stainless parts from Smallcar. It's all top notch.

Cooling: Tom Shiels up in Ontario is the most knowledgeable Subaru/Vanagon cooling system person. His reversed coolant manifold, extended thermostat housing, and system schematic are the way to go. He has a brand new Version 5.0 cooling layout that looks promising. I've used his Version 4 and it works very well. For getting the radiator supply hose to the water inlet, I like the Mastercraft Motors stainless pipe. It is the neatest layout there is for routing the supply line.

Wiring: Smallcar and Tom Shiels both can build fully complete wiring harnesses for 2.2 and 2.5 conversions. Not cheap, but this is a lot of work to do yourself. Even if you have the ability to do this yourself, it comes down to a time is money proposition. As far as vehicle speed sensors go, the Smallcar unit is the only one I know of. I'm not a huge fan of it. I noticed Richard Jones over in England has a much nicer VSS solution. I'd look into going that route next time around.


There are some other details, but that covers the basic setup. If anyone has any alternative input/comments, let's hear it.

David
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jackbombay
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:

I'm glad to hear that. At some point I'd like to do a TDI conversion in my 88 Wolfsburg Edition and was hoping it would be a solid 30+ mpg vehicle.

I think these low numbers have shown up several times with people driving converted Syncro Westys with oversized tires. I just stated these numbers because I like to quote things on the conservative side - especially when I'm not quoting figures from my own experience.

What do you get around town, and what kind of gearing are you running?

David


Wolfsburg, not a westy, right? ( Embarassed ) If so, you have better aerodynamics, and notably less weight to haul around than my westy, you'd really have to flog it very hard to get less than 30 MPG on the highway.

Big tires and syncros certainly would hurt the mileage quite a bit, ~2 MPG for fat tires, and another ~2 for the 4wd. I do have some tall skinny tires on my van, 195 75 16s to help gear it up further. My trans is an air cooled trans, 4.52 final drive (I think), I have a 1:1 3rd and a .77:1 4th. I like it just how it is, bit of a jump to 4th, but certainly not a deal breaker, 2750 RPM at 65 MPH with the big tires and wheels.

I don't so a lot of city driving, the closest I have done for a whole tank was on Nantucket, I was there for 2.5 weeks and did a ton of driving there, none of which was above 35 MPH, quite a few stops to, and typically I had 5-8 people in the van, that tank still got me 31 MPG. Also, my fill-ups are VERY accurate, I fill till there is liquid fuel at the very top of the filler neck, there is no possibility of variation from pump to pump.

IMO an e-tdi swap will you better MPGs than an m-tdi swap, but that is a whole nother can o' worms. (My $.02)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:

Big tires and syncros certainly would hurt the mileage quite a bit, ~2 MPG for fat tires, and another ~2 for the 4wd.

IMO an e-tdi swap will you better MPGs than an m-tdi swap, but that is a whole nother can o' worms. (My $.02)


Big tires (high rolling resistance), AWD, and added weight will definitely bring mileage down. A full Syncro Westy can still achieve 30 mpg though, as long as you don't go crazy with modification for even more power. Yes...even with a mechanical pump. Rolling Eyes Not sure where the information comes from that some magic in the electronics allows for better mileage; the 'electronic' pump IS a mechanical pump -- the electronics control only throttle travel and slightly modify the mechanical timing curve. An experienced foot can duplicate the e- throttle control. Timing control is advantageous on the e- version in altitude changes and emissions control. One place the mechanical version is far better is in boost control--no computer telling you the boost is too much. More dense cold air = better burning of the fuel, lower EGT. (of course post-2003 engines no longer use the VE pump so this discussion doesn't apply there)

A properly set up mechanical version will get very similar mileage. I have several customers with 2WD Westies getting 30-33 mpg. My Syncro with 30" tires and tall roof box, running BIG injectors and 12mm pump still gets 25-28 and delivers gobs more torque than a stock TDI.
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karl,

I've looked into the M-TDI a little, but it seems like there is no real consensus as to what route to go for the pump. I've heard of people modifying the AAZ pumps to produce more pressure, but have never really learned how the pump is modified and if it really can be set up to produce comparable levels of injection pressure to the TDI E pump.

Any insights on this for us?

Thanks,

David
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westyventures
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
Karl,

I've looked into the M-TDI a little, but it seems like there is no real consensus as to what route to go for the pump. I've heard of people modifying the AAZ pumps to produce more pressure, but have never really learned how the pump is modified and if it really can be set up to produce comparable levels of injection pressure to the TDI E pump.

Any insights on this for us?

Thanks,

David


Yes, lots of insight. Smile I've been building the pumps for customers for over three years now, and have developed it to a point now that I would never consider electronics for my own 'older' TDI powered vehicle. I use Cummins 4BT pumps which are already heavy duty, DI pumps with 12mm heads. Swapping a few parts for the proper timing curve and rpm limits results in some really nice power, and more than enough pressure and flow for the biggest injector nozzles. Also, IF you can can find one, the LT28/35 (2.8 TDI) series VW trucks in Europe used a bolt-on pump that works extremely well. I'm currently running that one on my own rig.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The part of the pump that produces the high pressure is the same for the mechanical VE pump and the e-TDi VE pump. There are many stock direct injection engines that run the mechanical VE pump. The plunger/head of the VE pump can potentially produce many times the necessary pressure for the e-TDI VE injectors. The injectors themselves are what determine the pressure at which the fuel is injected.

As Karl stated, the only advantage the e-TDI VE pump has over the m-TDI VE pump is on-the-fly timing adjustment with sensor feedback.

Andrew
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

westyventures wrote:
the 'electronic' pump IS a mechanical pump -- the electronics control only throttle travel and slightly modify the mechanical timing curve.


You have overlooked the fact that an e-TDI is not simply an electrically controlled pump, it, as you probably know, is a fully integrated system where the computer controls all aspects of engine management through feedback from many sensors, optimizing power, economy and emissions for any temperature, altitude, and throttle setting.

westyventures wrote:
One place the mechanical version is far better is in boost control--no computer telling you the boost is too much. More dense cold air = better burning of the fuel, lower EGT.


EGTs are not an issue for me, and shouldn't be for any other stock e-tdi, so I don't see what is wrong with letting the computer control the boost to optimize economy and minimize emissions. Overboosting your M-TDI is "solving a problem" that only seems to exist because you got rid of the electronics in the first place.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:

You have overlooked the fact that an e-TDI is not simply an electrically controlled pump, it, as you probably know, is a fully integrated system where the computer controls all aspects of engine management through feedback from many sensors, optimizing power, economy and emissions for any temperature, altitude, and throttle setting.

EGTs are not an issue for me, and shouldn't be for any other stock e-tdi, so I don't see what is wrong with letting the computer control the boost to optimize economy and minimize emissions. Overboosting your M-TDI is "solving a problem" that only seems to exist because you got rid of the electronics in the first place.


Sure, the electronics do optimize things slightly, but I'll stand by my statement that the electronic VE pumps are far from the 'magic' that a lot of folks think they are. Many modified e-TDI's do have EGT issues and smoke issues that come along with higher fuel levels which are a part of chipped ECU's and larger nozzle swaps. I do not 'overboost' any TDI's, I merely give the setup the volume and pressure it needs to run with minimal smoke. To state that the m-TDI has 'problems' that much be solved indicates that perhaps you don't understand what I and others are successfully doing in that end of the TDI world.

What I and most of my customers desire for our vans is a super-reliable high efficiency diesel that can be diagnosed and repaired with little hassle in the middle of nowhere. I think we have achieved just that, and for us it is the superior setup. For you, perhaps the electronics are more to your liking.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Conversion Reply with quote

Quote:
What I and most of my customers desire for our vans is a super-reliable high efficiency diesel that can be diagnosed and repaired with little hassle in the middle of nowhere. I think we have achieved just that, and for us it is the superior setup. For you, perhaps the electronics are more to your liking.


If i would need to do a diesel engine conversion or if I know anyone who need one, i would call Karl right away for some hint and suggestion or send him the customer. Karl as my vote big time at 150%. He is another crazy passionate Vanagon lover.

I have a lot of respect for Mightyart ( i know it's a big job men) but i did not agree when he deleted the Propex thread. We are VERY SMALL working passionate guys who try hard to make a living out of a 20+ yo vehicle, and it's such a small crowd. Give us a break my friend when possible, we are not GoWesty or other big seller..... (well, i don't even need one as i have nothing to offer here but still)

Cheers Karl.
ps.: and NO, i won't do the body work on your horrible van... ha ha ha (unless i get many many many Propex...)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mechanic just did one of the newer TDI conversions with the injectors that run off the or (a) cam under the valve cover for use in a Syncro. No pump

I asked about the trans necessities. He said that since it was a syncro, the R&P wasn't changed but the 3rd and 4th gear(s) were changed. Dunno to what ratios. I didn't need to get that far about it.
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