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0nebadbug
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Joined: October 01, 2009
Posts: 34
Location: Stillmann Valley, Illinois
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 Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Matt's Bug Parts wrote: | Matt from Matt's Parts here - I like to think that I am the best semaphore restorer in the world - from years of practice and almost constant focus on making minor improvements almost to the point of perfection.
Some years ago a video was made but provided only the basic info. Given that there are two brands, SWF and SHO followed by variances within those two brands in gets a little complex - for SWF there are differences between the first left and rights onto the ribbed and then onto the smooth.
There are quite a few different fasteners - nuts, bolts, rivets/grommets, pins etc. n the springs-took me a year of playinmg to perfect making the return coil spring that wraps around the hinge pin - and still I get 3 or 4 good ones for every 10 I start - excpet this past weekend when I did worse than that. There is alao the need for cadmium plating for the bodies/housings - or zinc and then nickel plating for the pistons-and your plater needs to know what they are doing.
It takes many hours to completely restore semaphores to NOS condition-with the most important step - staring with a good decent used unit.
Perhaps when I retire I can write it all down with pics.
Matt |
Don't worry Matt your thunder will be absolutley safe after my absolute novice butchery.... 
The abundance of non-information
...It seems pretty much no matter where you look. especially about the vw semaphore in particular there just seems to be nothing anywhere about anything beyond "yes its a semphore", "they were made by volswagon" & "yes Volswagon is in Germany"", all I want to do is make a set work better than how they were working and so far one that was 100% dead now works, quite well at that. And seeing as I have half a dozen just laying here what the hell why not tinker and if I do burn one? Guess its art then... & then I only have 5 left to burn before I need I buy new ones.
I know I am cluless about doing this and am sure alot are as well. And yes the purist will look at this and say i'm an idiot... thats fine. But I would rather add to a community rather than confound one. At least there will be a reference to something where there is nothing. And others will be able to tell whether or not to have a try at it or call the pro's and plop down $1000+ for a professionally correct rebuilt set or let alone cost of a NOS set... I know that isn't in my budget. Hell I spent less on rebuildng the original motor! While yes their are many nuances and differences from one mfr & year to year and so on.... and with the age of these things anything that helps one or a matched pair, last a little longer before replacing them?? Knowledge is priceless.
The semaphore is now a catchy must have style novelty with a seious ohhh ahhh factor. This thing reminds me of a funky electro magnet, like i used to build in 3rd grade with a D battery, with a nail wrapped in wire, except now the nail now moves down a sleeve and some crazy misguided engineers dreamed up some crazy three knucled hinged arm with a cute little light (blinking light engineer) in it and when the battery goes dead? the light goes out & It all gets pulled back down with a rubber band (designed by the gravity engineer)... anything but perfection here.
Hell the Germans could never finsh making their anti-gravity bell... Instead? we got it's electromechanized red headed stepchild out of it...
The VW Semaphore!
Rivet/gromet... <-----Does this have an actual name?
Tube Rivet?
Clinch Rivet?
Tapered Muffler Bearing?
Blinker Fluid Bubbler?
I see playing with a brass a tube, a flaring tool & 10 shots till I get one good enough to use
| DTurpin wrote: | | 0nebadbug wrote: | well so far so good... haven't trashed it yet...
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Nice wrap up, I did the same thing a month or two ago. Mine wasn't that bad as yours but the solenoid it self was in bad shape. Probably because of the 12v eating it had been doing. So I mainly took it apart to rewind it to 12v.
The hardest part was to find the protection wrap and lacquer for the solenoid but I finally got in contact with a company that rewind motors, they had of course. |
Very nice!
How does one convert a semaphore to 12v? |
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DTurpin
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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You need to rewind the semaphore with wire that has half the cross section area* compared to the original. Do as many turns as you possible can.
edit: *again with the area for those of you who has read the wiper conv. stuff I wrote  |
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alanandi
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Joined: July 23, 2003
Posts: 24
Location: bayreuth - germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: |
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can you tell me which cross sectin area this is? i don´t know how to measure this out.
thanks a lot
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 6160
Location: Dunstable, MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Interesting thread. I was just doing some sems last night and was thinking about doing a "how to". Unfortunately all of my sems I am doing now are taken apart, and parts just back from the plater. Anyone got a decent ribbed or grooved they want to send me for a "demo"? I'll restore it for parts cost only ...
To the point about "Probably because a few guys restore semaphores for money and why would they come on here and show everyone how to do it.", I will share everything I know about sem restos. I do not depend on sem restoration to pay my mortgage. I am not one of those people who pretends that what I do is rocket science and some great mystery that only a gifted few can do. There are many people here who have the tools and skills to do what I do. I am all about sharing information.
There are also many people who would just as well pay me for a good set of restored sems, am not worried about "losing business".
Kudos to onebad for starting this off.
First let me say that I only restore ribbed and grooved sems. But the techniques and many of the parts between them and the smooth ones are the same.
The biggest issue I have found with restoring sems is simply where to get the parts. Some are made by reproducers, some you can find pretty good used, and some I have had to just make myself.
I think what I will do, is create another thread on ribbed (SWF) and grooved (SHO) sem resto, as well as how to make smooth SHO into ribbed SWF lookalikes for about half what a real set of ribbeds would cost.
I have not yet read over this whole thread and all of "onebad's" details, if I have something to add I will in another post...
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 6160
Location: Dunstable, MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I'll let some "secrets" out...... 
The big rivet/eyelet on SHOs: I can find them anywhere, I make them out of 1/4 brass tubing I get at a hobby store. I slip a section over a flared neck tool I made out of a bolt and tap it. Then cut the other end off with the Dremel. I'll be doing some of these next night or two and will take pics and post. Made a few other tools to flare/flatten it on the other side.
The wire? I find this kind of funny that no one has found this place (maybe Matt has). I kept it a secret for a while and re-sold pieces to people who asked me (I buy a hundred feet at a time). angela.com Surf the site, they do sell it by the foot. You want the 22 gauge, black for SHO and white for SWF. Original wire was metric spec of course, and equates closer to a 24 gauge but I have not found a source for that gauge. This stuff is waxed cloth and perfect. Don't forget the vinyl sleeving where the originals had it. I use heat shrink, but had a tough time finding heat shrink that did not have lettering on it.
Coils were not lacquered actually, just cloth tape. I use a black "Gaffers tape" (SHO), google that, but you will need 2.5" or wider width. It is NOT duck tape, it is thinner. On the SHOs, there is one thin strip that goes in the gap where the last layer winding stops short of the end (terminal board side) and it holds the wire. Then a big piece goes over the whole thing.
WW now sells a linear spring that can be used for the pivot linkage. It is a little weaker than the original SHO, but perfect for SWF. I use a stainless cut-to-length spring from McMaster Carr for the SHOs when I need one. Will post pics of that. Might have the part number recorded somewhere.
"Snail" spring, I wrap my own like Matt. It took a long time to make a tool that worked, and yield is still pretty low. I use "music" wire for its spring properties. I think I get that at McMaster too.
Now about that pivot pin. On the SHOs, it is shouldered and hollow peened on each end. You can drill out the peen on each side a tad (2.5mm bit) but you will still have to pry the body tabs apart and "walk" it out because it is shouldered on both ends.
SWFs (much better design) are only shouldered on one end. So one hole is 3mm and one is 2.5mm. Drill off the peen on the smaller side, and you can just drive the pin out the other side.
I make new pins, I don't reuse old ones. I have seen some restorers reuse, but if you drill off the peen, the pin really can't be secured well again. I'll be making some pins next few nights too (real PIA scvws, you were going to make me some??) and will take pics and post. Its an inexacting "machining" operation, but it works.
The grooved SHOs are TWICE as hard to restore as the SWFs (SHO smooths are much easier). I have to make by hand 2-3 other parts for the grooveds. Happy to show how they are made, but it involves some purchased tooling also. Since this does not apply to the smooth ones, I think I'll not post here.
onebadbug, you did well and figured out a lot of it. Not hard if you take your time. Keep us posted on your progress!
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“In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure” ... Bill Cosby
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DTurpin
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Joined: July 01, 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Cool, thanks for the info John! I have searched everywhere for the cloth wire!
| alanandi wrote: | can you tell me which cross sectin area this is? i don´t know how to measure this out.
thanks a lot |
Just measure the diameter of the original wire and calculate the area from there. Double it and again translate to a new diameter, the wire sold are specified by diameter. You need to remove the layer of isolation before you measure. I usually burn most of it away with a one of these
and cautiously sand the rest of. |
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 6160
Location: Dunstable, MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Just google "AWG Tables" you will find tables of wire gauges that show calculated cross sectional area. I recently re wrapped a 6 volt one and I think it was 20 gauge copper wire. I can check when I get home and report.
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DTurpin
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Joined: July 01, 2008
Posts: 27
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: | | Just google "AWG Tables" you will find tables of wire gauges that show calculated cross sectional area. I recently re wrapped a 6 volt one and I think it was 20 gauge copper wire. I can check when I get home and report. |
I'm a metric kind of guy but 20 gauge is like 0.8mm or something, right?. I have written down 0.66mm on my whiteboard in front of me and calculated a new value of 0.47mm. I think those values are for the semaphore I converted.
I would just measure, its easy and you know you will get the right diameter. |
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0nebadbug
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Joined: October 01, 2009
Posts: 34
Location: Stillmann Valley, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: | Ok, I'll let some "secrets" out......
The big rivet/eyelet on SHOs: I can find them anywhere, I make them out of 1/4 brass tubing I get at a hobby store. I slip a section over a flared neck tool I made out of a bolt and tap it. Then cut the other end off with the Dremel. I'll be doing some of these next night or two and will take pics and post. Made a few other tools to flare/flatten it on the other side. |
Exactly what I was going to do... but today while I was foraging through a few stoes today "in search of' the brass tube... I happend to go in the the leather craft section, at a store here called Michael's, and came across a bag of these in both 1/4" copper & brass eylets! A a roll crimp tool that rolls them over nice and clean
All in one package fpr under $20 just like this....
| johnshenry wrote: | | The wire? |
Assuming here you are talking about the felxible wire to the light here... so far I have found the cloth insulator all over in both black, white and even green & red as well... and for the wire itself the closest I can find thats braided as well as thin enough is braided steel picture frame wire LOL... seems like it might work to me pretty good anyway...
For covering my coils go I have some PVC shrink wrap, black as well as clear too.
Have you ever used this stuff on a the coils? If not can you explain any reasons for the cotton type insulations that some rebuild them with?? as to why as well to what would be used v. what not using as an inner insulator? or if even actually would need the 2nd insulator using PVC shink...
For me i'm far from going anywhere towards a perfect matching NOS style production. (Hell I'm already looking around for some amber HO-LED's to stuff in a acrylic cast of on oem cover) Its more of like a doing of what I can, with what I have and just being happy in the end knowing they will last a bit longer & from my own hands...
Now if the soda media would just get here I could finish cleaning the parts and futher the rebuild...
Last edited by 0nebadbug on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Shantzmotors
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Joined: March 17, 2009
Posts: 6
Location: ontario canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Johnshenry
just pulled a 54? from the barn to start working on restoring as I remember 20 some years ago when it went in the semis only went 1/2 way out intrested in using them? |
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johnshenry
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Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 6160
Location: Dunstable, MA USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| 0nebadbug wrote: | | johnshenry wrote: | Ok, I'll let some "secrets" out......
The big rivet/eyelet on SHOs: I can find them anywhere, I make them out of 1/4 brass tubing I get at a hobby store. I slip a section over a flared neck tool I made out of a bolt and tap it. Then cut the other end off with the Dremel. I'll be doing some of these next night or two and will take pics and post. Made a few other tools to flare/flatten it on the other side. |
Exactly what I was going to do... but today while I was foraging through a few stoes today "in search of' the brass tube... I happend to go in the the leather craft section, at a store here called Michael's, and came across a bag of these in both 1/4" copper & brass eylets! A a roll crimp tool that rolls them over nice and clean
All in one package fpr under $20 just like this....
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I have a bag of those too, but they are so far off the originals I won't use them. The flange is way too big, and they are made of much thinner brass than the originals. At least the ones I bought are. And it is a "bright" brass, probably with an alloy in it to whiten it a bit.
| 0nebadbug wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: | | The wire? |
Assuming here you are talking about the felxible wire to the light here... so far I have found the cloth insulator all over in both black, white and even green & red as well... and for the wire itself the closest I can find thats braided as well as thin enough is braided steel picture frame wire LOL... seems like it might work to me pretty good anyway...
For covering my coils go I have some PVC shrink wrap, black as well as clear too.
Have you ever used this stuff on a the coils? If not can you explain any reasons for the cotton type insulations that some rebuild them with?? as to why as well to what would be used v. what not using as an inner insulator? or if even actually would need the 2nd insulator using PVC shink...
For me i'm far from going anywhere towards a perfect matching NOS style production. (Hell I'm already looking around for some amber HO-LED's to stuff in a acrylic cast of on oem cover) Its more of like a doing of what I can, with what I have and just being happy in the end knowing they will last a bit longer & from my own hands...
Now if the soda media would just get here I could finish cleaning the parts and futher the rebuild... |
I sell ribbed and grooved restored pairs for $850-$1200 depending on the amount of original parts. So correct-looking materials is key. Sure you could use a shrink wrap, that would work pretty well. But since the device is tucked away in a pocket in the body, it doesn't need to be much.
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“In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure” ... Bill Cosby
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Matt's Bug Parts
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Joined: July 01, 2001
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:14 am Post subject: Semaphore fasteners and bulb wire |
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OK-to start I will share what to use and how to shape the fasteners - that hold togther:
--the semaphore housing/body AND
---foot of solenoid AND
--fibre contact plates
For SWF pre Oct 49, ribbed and smooth except smooth convertible:-I use a fastener made of copper that is a tube with a lip at one end - I bought a box of these in Germany and will die with them. They are too long and the lip is too broad so using my drill and a dremel tool with a fibre cutting wheel I put the fastener into my drill with the lip end exposed - I then spin the dremel tool wheel at the same time as my drill and "sand the lip down til it is barely there - it will grom in size once you press it all together. I then cut it to length. John Henry - I would be happy to share a bunch of these with you.
For SWF smooth convertible:
For the large fastener I use a brass eyelet - and follow the procedure above to cut the lip down to tiny size-I have the correct length.
For the tiny fastener I use a tiny diameter brass eyeley cut to length.
For SHO grooved and smooth:These units use two fasteners - one holds solenoid to body and one holds the fastener, solenoid and body. I use a two brass eyelets - both are slightly smaller diameter than the smooth vert - one is shorter than other (short one is for holding solenoid to body) and cut the lips down as above.
I use cloth guitar wire for the bulb wires - white and black.
Matthew Ross |
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0nebadbug
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Joined: October 01, 2009
Posts: 34
Location: Stillmann Valley, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Semaphore fasteners and bulb wire |
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| Matt's Bug Parts wrote: | | I use cloth guitar wire for the bulb wires - white and black. |
Yeah I tought about that one too.. I tried a phosper wound extra light gauge piece just shade smaller gauge than the original (I play guitar so I have a million used strings here) but it seemed way too stiff... seemed to kind of pushing outward when in the closed position. Do you bend them where they turn down to the coil? ...or use a nonwund string
I tried using the braided framing wire and seems to work pretty good temporarily just trying different stuff and all... just not sure how long those would last though.
As far as the eylets go... I picked up a set of the bras, yes very thin and a copper set too and do have a thicker wall and a smaller lip and got some aluminum one too that are even thicker than the copper ones... |
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Matt's Bug Parts
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Joined: July 01, 2001
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:00 am Post subject: Semaphore parts and resto |
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Please go here for a reference guide for semaphores and some FAQ and trouble shootibng - Everett just posted it this week - it is the the technical section of the Samba:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/semaphores.php
I would like to state that generally I am NOT restoring others semaphores right now - but may do so in the future.
OneBadBug - if it helps I can sned you some parts for reasonable price - fasteners, buldwire etd - my bulb wire is cloth covered and flexible but stiffer than original and slightly larger diameter - but excellent - email me at: vwman@shaw.ca |
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alanandi
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Joined: July 23, 2003
Posts: 24
Location: bayreuth - germany
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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this is such a interesting thread - thanks to all the people sharing there knowledge.
it´s hard for me to understand everything - because i have to translate many words - but it´s worth it!
the next days i will start to restore my set - and see what happens
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Splitdog
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Joined: February 16, 2004
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Location: Planet VW
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad I got mine from Matt when I did!! Lol. They work totally bitchen, BTW. Thanks Matt. "You are the king!" 
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virtanen
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Semaphore fasteners and bulb wire |
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| Matt's Bug Parts wrote: | I use cloth guitar wire for the bulb wires - white and black.
Matthew Ross |
Do you have more info of this wire? Have you cycle tested it? The original wire has ca. 100 (just a guess, not calculated) tiny separate leads and because of that must last well in continous bending. |
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Matt's Bug Parts
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Joined: July 01, 2001
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:38 am Post subject: Semaphore bulb wire |
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I got help re: semaphore resto from Jeff Slater in the 1990s and use the same wire he did - the only testing is on cars - and it has stood the test of time - it definitely has many fewer strands than original.
Matt |
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0nebadbug
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Joined: October 01, 2009
Posts: 34
Location: Stillmann Valley, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Semaphore parts and resto |
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OneBadBug - if it helps I can sned you some parts for reasonable price - fasteners, buldwire etd - my bulb wire is cloth covered and flexible but stiffer than original and slightly larger diameter - but excellent - email me at: vwman@shaw.ca[/quote]
So far So god.. Luckily I havent had a reason to actually pull any of the teeny weeny shoulder pins or rivets ...or the spring. And onece I have the bag of soda blastineg media I think all of the mechanics will clean up very well... but am wondering if it will break the spring so going to dial back the pressure and take some care on them.
Back to that damn wire though.. I do have some nearly identical cloth insulation (that I saved from a set of halogen drop light in my office though it is white and the originals are black... no biggie I think the white insulator actually looks nicer)
I used a small piece very light guage f string and wove it into the braided picture frame wire and then laid a very light layer of silver solder and then softend it all and fed it in the insulator... Thinks its going to work pretty well
Now if this damn soda blast stuff would show up I could put up the pics of finishing it all... |
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