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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:02 pm Post subject: Build Thread: Subaru 5 speed Transmission into Vanagon |
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I am starting a build thread to share the work I’m doing to adapt a Subaru 5 speed manual transmission into a 1989 Vanagon. As some of you probably know, Todd Triebler at www.subarugears.com has discovered that it is possible to flip the differential in the Subaru transmission with some minor case clearancing. He is now offering the required reverse cut ring and pinion set for sale at a very reasonable $1500.
I think all of us who have done a conversion or have significantly increased the power of the Wasserboxer have all wished for more gearing choices for our Vanagons. The super short gearing doesn’t really allow our vans to effortlessly move away from stop lights with traffic, and there is no reason to cruise the highway at 4000+ rpms with a more powerful motor. I have done several Subaru coversions, and have never completely been satisfied with the results because of the big engine, short gearing combination.
I had always thought that at some point I would import one of the 29:7 (4.14:1) final drives available in Germany for the stock 4 speed and call it good. However, with the exchange rates being what they are I never got around to it. When I learned that Todd had come up with a way to reverse the direction of the Subaru gearbox I was excited enough to put my winter project (1.8T into Corrado) on hold. I did some research on the Subaru 5 speed transmission and came away impressed – and eager to see one bolted up under a Vanagon.
The Subaru 5 speed used in all manual transmission Legacys, Imprezas, and Foresters wears a type code of TY, and was first used in the 1990 Legacy. Subaru obviously got it right with this transmission because they have continued to develop it over the last two decades and as recently as 2008 they developed a 6 speed version of it that was first used in the Subaru turbodiesel. That transmission is now the standard transmission for the 2010 Legacys and Outbacks.
Subaru uses the TY transmission in turbocharged WRXs and Legacy GTs, so it is definitely a very stout unit. What really sold me on this transmission is the wide assortment of ratios and final drives available. Generally speaking, all turbocharged and early model N/A cars use a wide ratio gear set. The later model normally aspirated cars use a performance oriented close ratio gear set. For anyone that remembers the awesome close ratio Volkswagen transmissions, used in the 1983 GTI for instance, the Subaru close ratio gearboxes have ratios that are almost identical to the VW close ratio gearboxes:
With his initial product announcement, Todd listed 3.90:1 as the sole final drive ratio choice. This is the stock WRX ratio, but it would be too tall for an engine of lesser power in a Vanagon. I contacted Todd about the possibility of shorter final drive ratios, and I was delighted to hear from him that he could have any of the stock Subaru final drive ratios made. Shorter ratios from Subaru are 4.11:1 and 4.44:1. For reference, an air cooled Vanagon, which surprisingly has the tallest final drive of all Vanagons, is 4.57:1.
The Subaru TY gearbox is surprisingly close to the VW 091/1 transmission in configuration. Since this conversion needs be based off of a 4wd Subaru gearbox (converted to run just 2wd), it is longer due to the center differential housing. However, in terms of bellhousing length it is similar, and the starter is in exactly the same location. The differential output shafts are 2” lower than the VW 091/1, and the differential portion of the case definitely sits lower, but in the end doesn’t cause any ground clearance issues since the lowest point of the Wasserboxer is the front exhaust header.
As of last Sunday, I now have a 2002 Subaru gearbox installed in a 1989 Vanagon. I have modified it for length, mated it to an EJ22 engine, and bolted it under the van using a modified Smallcar rear mount, and a front transmission mount of my own design. I didn’t want to start this build thread until I had made significant headway. I see this conversion being a three part project:
I. Physical Installation
II. Shift linkage and drive axles
III. Installing the ring and pinion set
With Part 1 complete, I’m excited to share what I’ve been up to. I think this transmission conversion is an important missing link in the Vanagon improvement process. Naturally, it is the perfect answer for Subaru engine conversions, but with a custom adaptor plate and flywheel, this transmission could be joined to any Vanagon engine.
Over the next week I will be posting photos and details of Part 1. Feel free to ask questions or share thoughts.
David |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Bravo.
Good on ya for posting your build thread!
Sure looks promising.
Will you use a cable shifter or modify a Vanagon shifter?
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Orbitald Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 320 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Since this conversion needs be based off of a 4wd Subaru gearbox (converted to run just 2wd) |
Do you think this could possibly work for a Syncro?
David R.
Oakland, CA _________________ '87 Syncro Westfakia, 1.9TD ADE (AAZish), 068 Injection Pump, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler w/ 800cfm fan, Micro-1000 EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing |
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psych-illogical Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2004 Posts: 1181 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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OMG!!
Methinks this is going to generate some serious excitement.
Hey. Wait a freakin' minute. Is this some kinda April Fools thing? _________________ 83 1/2 Westy waterboxer
'57 Beetle-sold
Coupla '81 BMW motorcycles (R80G/S; R100RS)
'96 BMW R1100GS
Last edited by psych-illogical on Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Christopher Schimke Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005 Posts: 5391 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Right on, David!!! Can I come over to your house? _________________ "Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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wbx Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005 Posts: 1254 Location: Monterey, CA
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Very cool! I'll definitely be watching these threads. I am always impressed with you pioneer types... _________________ '84 Westy (first owner).......but my daily driver has pedals
My "perspective" mantra:
A Volkswagen Vanagon is just a material thing,
As such, it is of the earth,
And if i need to, I can let my Van go. |
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tclark Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2005 Posts: 926
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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OK can some do the math for me & tell me the rpm that a 1.9 TDI gonna run at with 15" inch wheel at 65-70mph ??
I guess we want around 2K maybe a bit less ? _________________ 89 Westy with TDI AHU 1.9 manual lots of mods
85 GL 1.9, auto (for sold) |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Sure looks promising.
Will you use a cable shifter or modify a Vanagon shifter?
Neil. |
Thanks, Neil! The original plan was to modify the Vanagon shifter, but I'm now considering using a two cable arrangement.
Orbitald wrote: |
Do you think this could possibly work for a Syncro?
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Yes, but there are some clearance issues. Also, there is no way to outfit this transmission with a locking rear differential and there would be no granny gear. It would make a great "Allroad" style Vanagon but not one suited for heavy offroading. Incidentally, the Subaru AWD system is a true full time system with a center differential and 50/50 front to rear torque distribution. It's a good system.
psych-illogical wrote: |
Hey. Wait a freakin' minute. Is this some kinda April Fools thing? |
No, it's for real. I just checked my garage to make sure
loogy wrote: |
Right on, David!!! Can I come over to your house?
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Yes, of course. Maybe next week sometime?
wbx wrote: |
Very cool! I'll definitely be watching these threads. I am always impressed with you pioneer types... |
Thanks, Damian. I'll definitely value your feedback and ideas on this one.
Last edited by D Clymer on Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10379 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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D Clymer wrote: |
Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Will you use a cable shifter or modify a Vanagon shifter?
Neil. |
Thanks, Neil! The original plan was to modify the Vanagon shifter, but I'm now considering using a two cable arrangement.
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I can see that. I bet using the Vanagon shifter (5 speed I assume) would involve a hybrid between the Suby and Vanagon bits. Does the stock Suby use cables? If so, would you incorporate those into the Vanagon somehow?
Or modify one like in pic below?
I know. That's stage 2. Wait for it.....
Neil.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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M_atthewanderson Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 288 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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I saw this on shoptalk, I really want to see his awd beetle.
I like this as an option over a g50 930 and cant wait to see your project. _________________ 1980 2.0 Sunroof Vanagon |
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vwlovr Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2006 Posts: 1122 Location: on the road
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:52 am Post subject: |
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mattography wrote: |
I saw this on shoptalk, I really want to see his awd beetle.
I like this as an option over a g50 930 and cant wait to see your project. |
oh, lets see a link for the awd bug! |
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klucz Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2006 Posts: 1062 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Awesome. _________________ 84 Westy 4spd sold |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: |
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the cali guys should be really psyched on this, full late model subie drive train in a Vanagon. _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:46 am Post subject: |
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240Gordy wrote: |
the cali guys should be really psyched on this, full late model subie drive train in a Vanagon. |
Why? _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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M_atthewanderson Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 288 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:46 am Post subject: |
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vwlovr wrote: |
oh, lets see a link for the awd bug! |
The build is on his website, subarugears, that D Clymer posted
http://www.shoptalkforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&a...8abca2d975
I love watching your work D Clymer, Thanks for getting a lot of the mystery out of the way. _________________ 1980 2.0 Sunroof Vanagon |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: |
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r39o wrote: |
240Gordy wrote: |
the cali guys should be really psyched on this, full late model subie drive train in a Vanagon. |
Why? |
well don't the California regulations require the full drivetrain (transmision) for an OBD2 swap? this allows you to meet that requirement. _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:02 am Post subject: |
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r39o wrote: |
240Gordy wrote: |
the cali guys should be really psyched on this, full late model subie drive train in a Vanagon. |
Why? |
It may help clear the ODBII hurdle?
It may also help clear a recent 3.3 hurdle in NorCal, ("matching transmission")
This is great!
Will be following this thread with interest. _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Orbitald Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 320 Location: Oakland, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Oh! 3.3 subi in CA!
Now that's exciting! _________________ '87 Syncro Westfakia, 1.9TD ADE (AAZish), 068 Injection Pump, K03 turbo, 2.5" exhaust, Mercedes nozzles, SAAB Blackstone charge-cooler w/ 800cfm fan, Micro-1000 EGT sensor pre-turbo, boost at about 13psi, 235/70/16 with stock gearing |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1689 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: |
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D Clymer wrote: |
Orbitald wrote: |
Do you think this could possibly work for a Syncro?
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Yes, but there are some clearance issues. Also, there is no way to outfit this transmission with a locking rear differential and there would be no granny gear. It would make a great "Allroad" style Vanagon but not one suited for heavy offroading. Incidentally, the Subaru AWD system is a true full time system with a center differential and 50/50 front to rear torque distribution. It's a good system.
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That would be fine with me, just give me a LSD rear and a selectable locking front - thats my ideal combo anyways.
The real problem for a syncro now is that you would need matching front ring and pinion, 3.90 gears sound perfect for a diesel, SVX etc, but for us syncro owners we would need a solution for the front diff.
At this point, I wonder if we might be able to switch out the front diff for something else with matched gears - would probably loose the front locker, but make a much more drivable vehicle overall. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:56 am Post subject: |
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240Gordy wrote: |
r39o wrote: |
240Gordy wrote: |
the cali guys should be really psyched on this, full late model subie drive train in a Vanagon. |
Why? |
well don't the California regulations require the full drivetrain (transmision) for an OBD2 swap? this allows you to meet that requirement. |
I think they want the exhaust too. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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