Camping When Lightning?

[Gauche1968]

So is it safe to occupy the upper bunk in a lightning storm? I had never thought about it until this weekend, while camping and one of those nasty storms rolled through at about midnight. I looked up, realized I was only protected by a thin canvass, held aloft by two metal bars. I decided to close the pop top and share the bottom bunk with a sandy dog.
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1984 Vanagon GL
1984 Vanagon Westy

[Perales]

You are isolated from the ground by 4 rubber tires. You should be safe. The lightning is looking for a source to ground.
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-- 1987 Westfalia automatic (Captain Vino)

[Hallvalla]

Man, I was scared shiitless last year camping in Sedona during a major lightning storm. Just bought the Westy, and driving it from Santa Fe to CA with my wife and 10 month old son (at the time).

Thought it was kinda' cool at first watching all of these lightning strikes all around us. Then fear took over. We were parked on top of a knoll and just felt like a lightning rod. Basically stay away from the metal (sides, doors, etc) and you'll have a decent chance to make it through if you're struck.

I've read the four rubber tires are nice in theory, but they really don't help all that much with a direct lightning strike. We packed up quick, drove into town, waited out the storm and then drove back.
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85 Westy
Subaru EJ22

[Vanagonner]

It is true that rubber is an insulator. It is also the case that air is a good insulator. Lightning is happy to jump thru miles of air, so a little rubber isn't going to make much difference.
What keeps us safe in a vehicle is the "faraday cage" effect, where electrons travel on the outside of a conductive enclosure. I think that the braces for the top would make great lightning rods, but the energy should travel from them down the outside of the van to ground.
I think moving to the bottom bunk is a great idea in storms. I do that myself.
I'm not a scientist, would be happy to hear from the samba science department.
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Sage
'82 Westy 1.6 D
the mighty n/a

[JPrato]

Vanagonner got it right, it is the metal cage that protects you. Inside a steel vehicle is one of the safest places you could be in a lighting storm. So climb down from the top bunk and enjoy the show! Your only danger is a tree limb or something getting blown down on the camper, so being out in the open is better.
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Joe

06 Subaru Legacy turbo (how am I gonna fit this sucker into the Westy....)
87 Syncro Tin Top project
84 Westy, 2.5L Subaru power
46 Cessna 140

[DAIZEE]

yep thaat sounds right. Very big sailboats even tho they are grounded can become sieves from a direct hit. Also you don't stand between the backstay and the metal wheel or you can become part of the chain.

Don't, don't go under trees for cover. Sounds like you did the right thing.

I have a question. If one was permanently stopped could one hang a mega ground between the vehicle and the ground.? Would that help? Just wondering.
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83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 97 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (for sale)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold)

Mental Health issues affect us all. Ignorance is not bliss. It's up to each of us to educate ourselves.

[Tracey]

A few years ago I was traveling from MN. back to AZ. Myself my now wife and our dog coming across Iowa at night during a huge storm. We were in our truck we had at the time (ford ranger 4x4). Big lighting coming down when sure as all get out we get hit. We were maybe going 55 mph and zap. It hit the truck went down through the tires and blew pencil size holes out 3 of my tires. It was crazy to look at the tire and see all the holes but Im glad they took the hit and not us. Besides a very burnt antenna the only other damage was to the tires and to some air ducting stuff under the dash. That was my experience with lighting strikes and cars......and I hope its my last.
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1986 Westy Subaru 2.5 Syncro **SOLD**
1970 Westy camper
1965 split project
I love the Vans!

[dobryan]

[DAIZEE]

ewwww for Tracey's story. I think I'd be stopping driving until the worst went thru. That violent doesn't usually last as long as sheet lightning.

To not be touching metal then would I be correct in getting the heck out of the drivers forward cabin? but then you move into the centre of the van and you are above the metal floor, perhaps the middle of the lower berth is THE best place to be. I do know that I'd be pulling off the road if severe.

Thanks for the answer
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83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 97 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (for sale)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold)

Mental Health issues affect us all. Ignorance is not bliss. It's up to each of us to educate ourselves.

[tozovr]

[dobryan]

[tencentlife]

At millions of volts anything can become conductive, so the tires are not able to isolate the chassis from ground during an actual strike, but they do help isolate when static charges are beginning to build which is what makes an object ripe for a hit.

Touching metal or not inside a vehicle makes no difference. The voltage is seeking the shortest least resistive path to ground, and so long as you're not in that path you're not part of the circuit. It would be like tee-ing a piece of wire to a current-carrying conductor, but leaving the end of the wire sticking out into space. No current would travel along the wire because it doesn't have to to reach ground, the wire is not part of any circuit. Your body would be the wire. Or hang by your hands from a high-voltage transmission line; you would not be part of a circuit so even though the line might be at tens of thousands of volts, there is no circuit thru you so no current flows. But touch another conductor or ground and you're what's for dinner.

It's true the earth is at negative potential, with a surplus of electrons, and in electric circuits the current actually flows from negative to positive. But lightning kind of makes its own rules, and in order to bridge from sky to earth it has to ionise a huge column of air so it will carry current. Sometimes it clearly moves from ground upwards, but just as often if the strike can be slowed down you can see fingers of light extending from both extremes that meet somewhere midway.
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[dobryan]

[FNGRUVN]

Airplanes get hit by lightning all the time and they're not grounded. There is no "perfectly safe place" in a lightning storm. People have been struck sitting inside their house. I guess when your number is up, there's no place to hide.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

[Dogpilot]

We get hit in aircraft all the time. Most of it passes through the aircraft skin and moves on its way. Radomes and other fiberglass parts have lighting strips bonded inside them, The still blow apart. All the static discharge wick usually blow off as do the dump masts and other straight protrusions. The bearing in the engine get damaged as the current jumps the gaps to leave out the propeller tips and the fan blades. One of my friends had ball lightning go through the cabin, down the aisle. Lightening is a bad thing for fiberglass homebulits.

So lots of good info here the body of the vehicle does act as a conductor. It has no problem jumping the 12 r so inches from the body to the ground or even through the steel belts in your tires. The poptop has no bonding, so it will pass through it on its way to the body of the van, and you if your in the way. There is the big hole in the roof between the van an the poptop...

So your westy is not as safe as a VW bug in the lightning, but safer than a Cabriolet. We get more lighting strikes here in Flagstaff than nearly anyplace else in the US. Golfers where hit not 20' from my house, as collateral damage while striking a tree nearby. If you go on mt. Elden, a little knob near the big mountain here, you can collect fused volcanic sand from the numerous strikes. It looks like black glass coral when you dig it up.
Situations where you are a fried toad:
In the open
On a peak
Under or near a tree
In a rainstorm in clerical garb holding a golf club aloft shouting at god
In an airplane flying near a thunderstorm
Between any place where the earth wants to give a few electrons back to the sky
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Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G

[tozovr]

[peaceful warrior]

Dogpilot, actually Florida has the most lightning ground strikes in the U.S.
I am sure Flagstaff is in the top ten for cities though. I lived in Sedona for 6 years, and I worked in Flagstaff quite a bit. I have memories of driving home down 89A and watching lightning strike trees off the side of the road.

But I will say that electrical storms in Sedona are by far the most spectacular I have ever witnessed.........Lights up the red rock like nothing else.

By the way I was reading about lightning rods a few months back, and the recommendation I read was not to place a lightning rod on or anywhere near your campsite. Also recommended not to be the tallest object in the area.
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"Two things are infinite: The universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
"Notchboy" says "Man up!"
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65 Sunroof Beetle, 66 13W Deluxe, 66 Type34 Ghia, 68 Westfalia, 77 Adventurewagen, 87 Syncro, 87 Weekender, 89 Westfalia!
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Brian

[FNGRUVN]

[[/quote]

I don't think the heavy stuff will come down for a while.[/quote]

Great line.

In a lightning storm I always hold up a 1 iron. Not even God can hit a 1 iron.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

[Vanagonner]

LOL on the 1 iron...

[Dogpilot]

It should path around the van, but there is that huge hole in the roof, the one cut out for access to the poptop. So the question is will it like to go through the stove, for example. You can do the calculations all you want, but to test this theory you have to take it to that chamber NASA keeps with the humongus Van De Graff generator and strike it from different aspects. There is always a bit of going back to the drawing board on airplanes after a run through the chamber.

Realistically, I've never heard of anybody getting hit or being injured in a westy. I really don't think there is a clear answer to say it would be perfectly safe. I do think it is safer than standing outside, drier too. I was going to camp through a few storm up on Mt Elden (which get struck nearly every day in the summer in virtually the same places) to do some lightning photography from the westy. That was until I looked up at the big hole and said Hmmmm.

Yes, as a state Florida leads the pack, but for a single site, Flagstaff wins. It has been used repeatably for lightning research since the 50's. During the Monsoon season, you can get lightning guaranteed every day for a period in a small area. The mountain makes its own weather, sticking up all alone like it does (Orographic Lifting). Heck we even get lightning in the snow here! In fact they did a project with a modified version of my very own Birddog. They would get above the cloud and circle above it every day as it grew collecting data and dropping sondes. The growing thunderheads would actually push up quite quickly (carrying you along with the rising bubble of moist air). It is also convenient, as the mountain is only 15 miles from the airport. They tried it with a glider for a while, but eventually it got its wings ripped off from turbulence and the lucky pilot got to check out that cool parachute.

If you really want to have fun, launch model rockets into the bottom of a thunderstorm. The lightning will path through the rocket exhaust. The researchers that do this use a pneumatic launching system, as the strike will path through the wires back to the unlucky controller.
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Geology with a Syncro rocks!
86 Syncro Westy AKA "The Bughunter"
98 Disco I
08 Range Rover SC
08 VW Rabbit S
1951 O-1G