Cabin Insulation

[manikmike]

Some data on a couple "on-the-cheap" sound deadeners, and some more expensive ones...

Since I had these items left over from home repairs, I thought I would give them a shot... ProtectoWrap - NOTE 6-3-10: This product is asphalt-based. While the product MSDS claims no adverse effects expected at ambient temperatures, vapors released from heating product may cause respiratory irritation. It's not clear at what temp this occurs, but I'm removing the product regardless.


Self Adhesive Ducting Insulation


And at some point I had a return credit so I snagged this from Mid America Motorworks...


And some Dynamat Xtreme from my door project...


I used laundry detergent and water, then POR15 MarineClean to prep the surfaces, all materials were rolled after placement... given the ubiquitous ridges in the floor, I was expecting some difficulty getting things to stay, but not much, as it was >90F weather.

The duct insulation install was not easy as it isn't very flexible, nor was the product very sticky to metal. As you might be able to see, trying to roll this material into the grooves, after trying to place it in them as I laid it down, caused a lot of rips in the foil.


The ProtectoWrap went on more easily. I did have to make some cuts here and there for bubbles and to get it to seat, but otherwise not too shabby. However, it also began to peel off by the next day, in corners, in depressions, and randomly.


So, I threw down the MAM and Dynamat...


Granted, the other products were on an inclined or vertical surface. However, I figure all had an equal chance at sticking to the surface depressions... the Dynamat stuck the best, and after 3 days is not peeling up or coming off the metal surface. The MAM had peeled up from the gentle incline going from the seat to floor pan, and peeled completely off with ease. The ProtectoWrap had corners peeling up, and many air bubbles; I could slowly peel that product off (also, it was about 1/2 the thickness of the Dynamat); I removed all of the duct insulation except for on the wheel wells.

Long story short (too late?): I'm all for cutting corners financially if the product is near-effective to a pricey competitor - but in this case, the only product left standing - er, sticking - is the expensive stuff.

It's possible I could increase the stickyness of the cheap options with some 3M spray adhesive.

I'm not endorsing Dynamat* in this example beyond it's ability to remain adherent. In fact, I've bit the bullet after reading whatever reviews I could, sold a bike for funds, and ordered Second Skin products. Atop those, I'll be using a "Reflectix" type insulation.

*It definitely made a noticeable improvement in the road noise from the doors and the quality of sound from the speakers.

Cheers,
_________________
Mike
79 Rivi, 2.0L FI
G'Ville, FL

[BUSBOSS]

Here's a bit on my experience:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...mp;start=0
_________________
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten)

[barefootwestie]

[mywifesghia]

[barefootwestie]

It may be waterproof, but what happens if a pocket of air settles between the waterproof Great Stuff and let's say the outside door skin. Water drips down from the window seal, settles in the air pocket and has nowhere to escape, thus rusting the skin from the inside.
_________________
tangerinemoons.com
My Bus Restoration Blog
http://myvwbus.tangerinemoons.com/

1973 Westfalia
"Getting better....one repair at a time."

Other VW's owned through the years, in no particular order:
'67 Beetle,
'67 Ghia Hardtop,
'72 Ghia Convertible,
'72 Westfalia

[mywifesghia]

[BUSBOSS]

VW seals on the operable windows ( ie, front doors) were never meant to seal out water. That is why they drilled weep holes into the bottom of the door.
_________________
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten)

[barefootwestie]

[mywifesghia]

[patayres]

I wouldn't use the Great Stuff either, but it's your bus.

Regarding this picture above:


Why would you put deadener on the front of the bulkheads? Doesn't seem like an area that would quite any roadnoise & you'll be able to see it even with the seats reinstalled.
_________________
1975 Westfalia Helsinki - 1800 EFI w/ Pertronix
1965 Singlecab - 1600dp

yuthi'so'coro

[barefootwestie]

At first I thought, "Maybe for extra insulation when the front cont passenger is snoring" but then again, doesn't look like it would have the front cot.
_________________
tangerinemoons.com
My Bus Restoration Blog
http://myvwbus.tangerinemoons.com/

1973 Westfalia
"Getting better....one repair at a time."

Other VW's owned through the years, in no particular order:
'67 Beetle,
'67 Ghia Hardtop,
'72 Ghia Convertible,
'72 Westfalia

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

[barefootwestie]

[manikmike]

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

[aliennetwork]

I also looked at that and said, "why?" It will be visible and serves no purpose.
_________________
'73 Westy "The Falcon"
M-Plate
http://www.aliennetworkrecords.com

[farfromcruzin]

I notice a lot of people in here want to use 3M Spray Adhesive. I just thought I should mention that it does not stand up well. After about 3 months of Summer temperatures inside a closed bus, it will lose all adhesion and becomes dry and dusty. At least in my experience. I say leave that product for Martha Stewart and her glitter crap.
Couldn't Reflectix be applied with spray undercoating instead? How many birds are we getting with that stone? Inhibits rust, deadens noise, and it should be sticky enough for the job, no?

[chabanais]

You can POR15 the panels then use expanding foam insulation. It doesn't weigh much and the stuff I put in my sliding door 8 years ago still looks the same as it did when it dried. They use the stuff for homes, etc.

Even if you use too much you can slice it down to size with a knife or saw.
_________________
"I spud therefore I yam."

[mywifesghia]

[Chubber]

Ill resurrect this old thread to give my 2 pfennigs worth and ask some questions.

I just did a Beetle convertible with a layer of the Peel and Stick applied over a freshly brushed and painted floor and rear deck. I let the paint cure 2 weeks before applying it. Then I applied a layer of the duct insulation over the top of that everywhere but on the floor. It made very little smell, and adhered really well, and it was probably 100 in my garage at the time. Use a real "laminate roller" to press the Peel and Stick down when applying. Then the duct insulation I actually glued to the bottom of the carpet instead of sticking it to the floor. The carpet pulls up to clean and let it dry if it gets wet from something.

I originally didn't want to use the Peel and Stick because it's just asphalt, but then I realized that VW put in cheap asphalt 30 years ago and most of it has done fine until now. I'm sure there are better alternatives, but it works well, especially in multiple layers.

I used some of the Peel and Stick on the doors too, but not on the outer skin. Too much water there. I used it on the frame, cut to the stampings behind the panel. Much less damp there and it cuts off some of the resonance.

The sound level is very low and the reflected heat from the road no longer comes up through your shoes.

Now I am working on my '71 deluxe bus. I am reviewing the headliner insulation issues. VW put up what looks like a thick burlap pad, like a horse blanket, and I can see that it was light weight and didn't hold moisture, which is good. But I am sure that I can come up with something that's better, cheap and doesn't hold condensation either. I thought about using fiberglass. They used to make a "non itchy" spun version, but I can't find it any more. I was going to use fiberglass, then a layer of Tyvek house wrap over it (to keep any fiberglass particles from raining down through the perforated vinyl) supported by stainless binding wire running front to back. The bows would help hold the wire up, which would hold the insulation up. This is still in the planning phase.

Another idea for the roof is poly isocyanate foam boards. I want to see if it can be bent to match the contour of the roof. Even the 1/4 inch kind would help block radiant heat and quiet it down somewhat.

For the walls, I am torn over what to do. Too much water condenses on cold metal for me to feel comfortable sticking things to the metal too much. I like the idea of adding more insulation to the back of the panels instead. I would probably just prime, paint and maybe truckbed line the inside of the door panels and the body panels. Add a little weight, but only using stuff that really bonds to the surface. Mostly I just want to seal it really well.

Likewise, for the nose I get a kick out of the little pieces of styrofoam that VW put up there. They don't appear to serve any kind of purpose and can't insulate anything without being bonded to something. I don't really know what I will do with that area. Probably just really good primer and some 2 part truck bed liner.

For the frame members, they are just begging to get a blast of Great Stuff, aren't they? Resist the urge. First, it can buckle metal. It seals on the ends first, then the inside is slower, but it WILL expand when it cures, and that's got to go somewhere. Plus, it's not heat stable and will degrade quickly at 100+ degrees, easily reached inside almost any car in the sun. Car makers use a similar, but much more heat tolerant formula. If I was going to do anything there, I would probably just stuff it with loose fiberglass insulation. That breathes well enough while still blocking sound movement through those tubes. Just none where water can get up to it.

If you want to keep your bus warm and quiet, the #1 thing to do first is make sure that your seals are tight. That means around the doors, around the glass in the doors, vent windows, the all important front air flaps, the rear hatch, the sliding door, etc. All the insulation in the world won't help if it's a wind tunnel in there while driving.
_________________
Chubber
'71 Deluxe 7 Passenger Bus
'72 Fastback
'74 Super Beetle Convertible (Sold)