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First Subaru Reversed Transmission is a Runner!
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:24 am    Post subject: First Subaru Reversed Transmission is a Runner! Reply with quote

I just got news from Todd Triebler at www.subarugears.com that the first reversed Subaru 5MT transmission has now hit the road. It is installed in a standard wheelbase dune buggy and apparently it works beautifully.

Read about it here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=420116

It's nice to see this concept go from theoretical to reality.

David
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, very impressive.

I wonder if he had to do as much fabrication as yours.

Has there been any discussion on doing this with four wheel drive for a buggy or a syncro? He mentioned his 4wd manx... not sure if he kept it 4wd though.

I can easily see this catching on just like the subaru engines have for the vanagon.
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edgood1 wrote:
wow, very impressive.

I wonder if he had to do as much fabrication as yours.

Has there been any discussion on doing this with four wheel drive for a buggy or a syncro? He mentioned his 4wd manx... not sure if he kept it 4wd though.

I can easily see this catching on just like the subaru engines have for the vanagon.


Probably a similar amount of work, although the nice thing about converting into a Type 1 chassis is that the shift linkage does not have to be re-engineered. The linkage rod already rotates in the correct direction since there is a ball and socket under the shifter from the factory.

Todd's project Manx does indeed use the entire Subaru 4wd system along with a WRX engine. It should be a real rocket. This opens the door for some fascinating Type 1 possibilities - 4wd Baja Bug, Type 87 Kommandeurwagen replica, etc.

Yes, I think once the durability is proven, and the huge gearing advantages are realized, this will be a popular upgrade.

David
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering that a re-geared stock syncro transmission and rebuild will cost upwards of $3000, this may be very popular and cost-effective option for syncro owners. If and when a 4wd kit becomes available.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking forward to Syncro applications.
This advance will propel conversions a step further IMHO.
Much needed breath of fresh air in the marketplace.

So many possibilities!
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
Looking forward to Syncro applications.
This advance will propel conversions a step further IMHO.
Much needed breath of fresh air in the marketplace.

So many possibilities!


Very true. Although, I do think the lack of a rear differential lock and granny gear will limit the appeal somewhat.

There is a chance that with future evolutions of the reversed ring and pinion it will be possible to use the Subaru dual-range transmission. That would simulate more of a 4 Low setup that would lower the gearing in all five gears. (The Legacy version of this tranny was never sold here, so it would have to be sourced from another country.)

As it stands, with the basic Syncro adaptation, there would be two possible configurations:

1. Direct drive of the center driveshaft from a locked transmission driven shaft. This would use the standard Syncro front differential and viscous coupling. A set of reversed Subaru gears in the VW 4.86:1 would be needed for that to happen.

2. Drive of the center driveshaft from the front end of the Subaru center differential. This would use the Subaru rear differential in the front of the van. The Subaru "Continuous AWD" system is basically like a Generation 1 Audi Quattro. It is full time 4wd with an open center differential: 50/50 torque split. For locking though, it has a small viscous coupling incorporated into the differential that locks the differential when there is a speed variance between front and rear axles.

Both of these options will of course require a custom driveshaft flange and end housing, but the engineering principles are straightforward and viable.

David
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edgood1
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:


1. Direct drive of the center driveshaft from a locked transmission driven shaft. This would use the standard Syncro front differential and viscous coupling. A set of reversed Subaru gears in the VW 4.86:1 would be needed for that to happen.



would swapping the R+P in the front diff to the correct size to take advantage of the R+P size of the transmission work?
Does anyone make them in that size?

eek... but then no decoupler/switchable 4wd.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edgood1 wrote:
D Clymer wrote:


1. Direct drive of the center driveshaft from a locked transmission driven shaft. This would use the standard Syncro front differential and viscous coupling. A set of reversed Subaru gears in the VW 4.86:1 would be needed for that to happen.



would swapping the R+P in the front diff to the correct size to take advantage of the R+P size of the transmission work?
Does anyone make them in that size?


It would work, but the shortest of the stock Subaru final drive ratios is 4.44:1. I have a feeling most Syncro owners would want something shorter to keep first gear as a decent overland gear. Also, no one makes the custom ring and pinion set for the front that would be required to make this work.

Even by keeping the VW 4.86:1 ratio, the transmission gearing would end up a bit taller since 1st-5th in the Subaru transmission are taller than the equivalent ratios in the VW tranny.

David
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:10 pm    Post subject: Subie stuff Reply with quote

Excellent Thread!
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JoeVanagon
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could always use a Subaru rear diff flipped over and fabricate a mount, that way R/P ratios remain the same, just like on a Subaru car. Might not be ideal ratios for crawling, but Suby's do ok off road. Just give it more gas!

Joe
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoeVanagon wrote:
You could always use a Subaru rear diff flipped over and fabricate a mount, that way R/P ratios remain the same, just like on a Subaru car. Might not be ideal ratios for crawling, but Suby's do ok off road. Just give it more gas!

Joe


This is basically what I had described as Configuration #2 in my original post. We'd driving the center driveshaft right off the end of the center diff, though,instead of through the geared output shaft. This would rotate the center driveshaft in the correct direction, so flipping over the Subaru rear differential wouldn't even be necessary.

David
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Sir Sam
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It occurred to me tonight that if you did an automatic subaru swap that the loss of a granny gear wouldn't matter as much, the ability to crawl with an auto is not dependent on having low low gears, though a granny would still be nice.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Sam wrote:
It occurred to me tonight that if you did an automatic subaru swap that the loss of a granny gear wouldn't matter as much, the ability to crawl with an auto is not dependent on having low low gears, though a granny would still be nice.


Yeah, the stall speed that's engineered into the torque converter does allow for first gear to act lower than the actual ratio would suggest.

Todd at www.subarugears.com is planning to reverse the Subaru automatic transmission also, so what you describe will be a possibility at some point. The Subaru automatic is longer and the pan sits lower, though, so it won't fit the van as perfectly as the 5MT manual tranny does.

Still fun to think about. Lots of intriguing possibilities.

David
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently he has a synchro conversion in the wind, so it will be interesting to see what they come up with.
I think he would be willing to do a run of 4.86 R&Ps in the reversed subaru pattern if there is sufficient demand. As it is a whole new R&P you are not limited to the subaru ratios.

The flip cannot be done with the auto trans - only the manual tranmission.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well some of that is true...but there's been developments.

I'm working on the 4.86 ratio manual conversion as we speak. That will get us closer to the syncro conversion.

I'm also working on the auto. You can't "flip it" but you can reverse it with a lot of work. We'll have a test one going in a few months and see if anything comes from it. No promises though.

It's also a very big transmission. It won't fit into a type 1 without some SERIOUS cutting. Won't fit into a Vanagon without clearancing or cutting through the reinforcement beam in the middle of the floor.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is good news. For road use they'd be great but fairly useless for offroading.
No difflock or low gear for offroading. This is what lets the Eurovan (T4) down.

I'd imagine that the mods needed on the Subaru Auto gearbox would be similar to the mods carried out by HA Projekts on the Audi Tiptronic 2WD gearbox to allow the drive to be reversed...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I'd love to have a complete Audi setup in a van but the price for the kit from HA Projekts is very high but well made.

MG
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Original Manx wrote:
Well some of that is true...but there's been developments.

I'm working on the 4.86 ratio manual conversion as we speak. That will get us closer to the syncro conversion.

I'm also working on the auto. You can't "flip it" but you can reverse it with a lot of work. We'll have a test one going in a few months and see if anything comes from it. No promises though.

It's also a very big transmission. It won't fit into a type 1 without some SERIOUS cutting. Won't fit into a Vanagon without clearancing or cutting through the reinforcement beam in the middle of the floor.


I stand corrected! This just keeps getting better...

More details on the auto please - preferably with pics. Would you still need a reverse cut R&P with this arrangement so that the drive is on the correct part of the tooth?

I am not afraid of a little clearancing... bring it on Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kombicol wrote:
Original Manx wrote:
Well some of that is true...but there's been developments.

I'm working on the 4.86 ratio manual conversion as we speak. That will get us closer to the syncro conversion.

I'm also working on the auto. You can't "flip it" but you can reverse it with a lot of work. We'll have a test one going in a few months and see if anything comes from it. No promises though.

It's also a very big transmission. It won't fit into a type 1 without some SERIOUS cutting. Won't fit into a Vanagon without clearancing or cutting through the reinforcement beam in the middle of the floor.


I stand corrected! This just keeps getting better...

More details on the auto please - preferably with pics. Would you still need a reverse cut R&P with this arrangement so that the drive is on the correct part of the tooth?

I am not afraid of a little clearancing... bring it on Twisted Evil


Same here, I'll cut the hell out of the body and then reinforce it. Personally I prefer the auto for 4wheeling, lets you crawl over stuff much better and with more control. No need for three feet and two hands like when wheeling with a manual.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Original Manx wrote:
It's also a very big transmission. It won't fit into a type 1 without some SERIOUS cutting. Won't fit into a Vanagon without clearancing or cutting through the reinforcement beam in the middle of the floor.


Well, that kind of cools my ardor. How about a Bay?
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