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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: Splitting the case pros and cons. Type 4 |
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I have my 1800cc engine torn down and am getting rebuilt heads, new P/C's, new gaskets, ect. I am wondering if splitting the case is something I should do?
What are the pros and cons and what do I need to look for when doing so? New bearings?
Thanks Alex _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50347
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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What do your cam and lifters look like? If you don't know what you are looking at post pictures. |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose you didn't have an oil pressure gauge so you wouldn't know what pressures it was running before you took it apart eh? Any idea on the mileage on it? How clean is it inside (regular oil changes)?, any low knocking at idle when it was warm?, what's the endplay?
Some bearings are hard to find right now so if the cam looks good and you haven't mixed up the lifters splitting a known good case isn't someting to take lightly unless you are bent on a 100% new engine when you're done. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Well I havent driven the bus yet. It had low compresion on one cylinder when I got it so I tore it down.
I found these bearings...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=971393
BUT im assuming there are more the one set of bearings.
I really just want to know that is I split the case and clean the case and whatnot, if it would be worthwile or even not good to do? I want to get a good look at it because I had the engine in the driveway with it all tore down and my dad decided it would be a good idea to wash it off.
I just want to see if there is any surface rust or anything on the inside.
Im not sure if that is even possible?? _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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All the engine components have the same wear and miles. My experience with doing "top end" jobs has been les than positive..
Tighten up the top end with new found compression and stand by while the bottom end components prove they don't like it. _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Jake Raby wrote: |
All the engine components have the same wear and miles. My experience with doing "top end" jobs has been les than positive..
Tighten up the top end with new found compression and stand by while the bottom end components prove they don't like it. |
So, I need to rebuild the entire engine? I want to treat my Bus right but I also want to be able to drive it asap.
Im only 16 so money is a big issue.
Is there any other reason to split the case besides replace the crankshaft and camshaft and bearings? _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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Joey Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2005 Posts: 5366 Location: Nova Scotia - Canada
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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al.hurst wrote: |
Im only 16 so money is a big issue. |
...and type IV parts are E X P E N S I V E ! ! ! _________________ Joey
‘60 Kombi - '74 Bus - '79 Panel - '65 Beetle |
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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Joey wrote: |
al.hurst wrote: |
Im only 16 so money is a big issue. |
...and type IV parts are E X P E N S I V E ! ! ! |
I know thats right 70 bucks for a gasket set! 200 to rebuild headasts 400 for P/Cs...
But I want a RELIABLE bus not necesarrily "fast" _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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sometimes the low compression is a worn out bearing so the piston isn't moving very far. Split the case. It the parts are good then you might have a couple hundred dollars resizing the rods, new bearings and polishing the crank. If the parts are bad then it would have failed and maybe damaged the new parts. When you pull the lifters put each one in a plastic baggie and label which hole it came from. You must put each lifter back on the same lobe unless they are resurfaced. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Well lets see some good, well lit, well focused pics of what you have, unless you plan on some epic interstate road trips you may be able to get by with what you have while you save up for that dream rebuild. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Okay. I am out of town for thanksgiving but when I get home I will.
What are you looking for? A picture through the hole where the pistons go? _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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supersooner Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2005 Posts: 131 Location: At the ranch - 20 miles east of Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't align boring necessary if the case is split, or is that only with the old uprights? If it's a possibility then the poster might be able to get away with rings and a valve job for not so much money and do a complete rebuild later. Too risky? |
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drober23 Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2009 Posts: 787 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Tom Wilson's book "How to Rebuild your Volkswagen Engine" would be appropriate right about now.
It gives you the background and procedures to evaluate the engine and its components. A tremendous book, really.
For instance, the book mentions that align boring is to be expected for a Type 1 case (as in you would be surprised if it did not need it done), but that the Type IV is stronger and this problem is less prevalent. He also explains how to do an align bore, so that when you take the case to an engine shop to be inspected you know what tolerances they are looking for and what they should do. _________________ DJ
'75 Westfalia, '79 Deluxe, and some others...
(more busses than sense)
In a time of chimpanzees I was a monkey |
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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: |
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drober23 wrote: |
Tom Wilson's book "How to Rebuild your Volkswagen Engine" would be appropriate right about now.
It gives you the background and procedures to evaluate the engine and its components. A tremendous book, really.
For instance, the book mentions that align boring is to be expected for a Type 1 case (as in you would be surprised if it did not need it done), but that the Type IV is stronger and this problem is less prevalent. He also explains how to do an align bore, so that when you take the case to an engine shop to be inspected you know what tolerances they are looking for and what they should do. |
I have that book, I havent read all the way thru it yet. _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51144 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:53 am Post subject: |
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al.hurst wrote: |
I have that book, I havent read all the way thru it yet. |
Please take it with you to the bathroom and get on it, continue this thread when the air clears _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
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busdaddy wrote: |
al.hurst wrote: |
I have that book, I havent read all the way thru it yet. |
Please take it with you to the bathroom and get on it, continue this thread when the air clears |
Will do sir!
Pass the Febreze. _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21518 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Jake Raby wrote: |
All the engine components have the same wear and miles. My experience with doing "top end" jobs has been les than positive..
Tighten up the top end with new found compression and stand by while the bottom end components prove they don't like it. |
X2 on this. If you have an unknown engine....it is a potential waste of rebuilt heads to not at least disassemble,clean and measure the bottom end. Ray |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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okcattleco wrote: |
Isn't align boring necessary if the case is split, or is that only with the old uprights? If it's a possibility then the poster might be able to get away with rings and a valve job for not so much money and do a complete rebuild later. Too risky? |
Align boring is only necessary when the bearings have pounded the case saddles or the case is warped. Typically T1 engines see it more because they are weaker. T4 cases are less common being alignbored. American and European straight 6 engines are most common because the blocks sag in the middle. V8's etc ususually have it done when building a racing motor and they want the engine blueprinted. Sometimes it is done on water cooled engines to make sure the crankshaft and cylinders are at the correct angle in racing because if not the cylinders at one end will have more displacement/compression than the ones at the other end.
You never want to align bore a VW unless it needs it. You can't get the metal back. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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pnocean Samba Member
Joined: April 23, 2004 Posts: 40
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Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Joey wrote: |
al.hurst wrote: |
Im only 16 so money is a big issue. |
...and type IV parts are E X P E N S I V E ! ! ! |
I just got through working with a good bus mechanic and got about $3600.00 into a "rebuild" on my '79 Westy. The only parts from the old motor were the connecting rods, and crank and AMC heads. Sent the crank out to be ground and polished. Got a gift of very nice Type IV block from a good Buses by the Beach friend, but purchased new oil pump, pistons, lifters, valves, pushrods. Also installed a extra oil capacity deep sump and 2 Dakota Digital gauges; CHT and OT. _________________ '87 Westy "JoesVan" |
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al.hurst Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Okay so I think I have answered my question...
Pros:
-Inspect crank.
-Grind crank if needed.
-Polish crank
-?Balance Crank?
-Balance Rods
-Inspect Cam(Check for lobe wear)
-Replace Cam if needed
-Inspect lifter, replace if needed
-Hot tank the case
Cons:
-May find parts needed to be replaced
-Hard to split the case.
Am I missing anything? _________________ Dont ever pick your nose... It usually leads to RUST! |
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