Has the engine builder finished the build? Opinions Needed!

[jl_1303]

I commissioned a reputable engine builder in Califormia to build me an engine ( 2276, FK8, DRD L6, 5.352” rods, about 9:1 Compression Ratio, etc), using parts (some new and some used) mostly supplied by me.

The project started and was fully paid for in Jan 2010 and since the engine builder has been rather slow in putting the engine together. The project includes testing, tuning and breaking in the engine on a Dyno. I was charged $1500 for the labour cost to put together the engine and the Dyno time.

The invoice says I was charged $1500 for the following:

Build engine with customer supplied parts. Blue print assy, and
correct and problems, Includes dyno time

The build plan is as follows,

NOS Mexican AS41 universal case, cut to 94mm, stroker clearanced, shuffle pinned, drilled and tapped for full flow, surface decked already, would require the lifter bores be silicon bronze sleeved by the engine builder (supplied)
Used but with STD/STD journal sizes 82mm Okrasa crank (supplied)
NOS Porsche Journal Rod bearing KS (supplied)
NOS FK8 cam (supplied)
NOS Wizemann lifters (supplied)
Used Berg pump cover for full flow (supplied)
Used Berg 1 5/8" header/exhaust/heater boxes (supplied)
Used Dellorto 45 dual carbs (supplied)
Used CSP Linkages for IDF/Dells Bell Crank (supplied)
New Mechanical fuel pump, base and push rod (supplied)
Used KEP 1 pressure plate and clutch disc (supplied)
Used Stock DG oil cooler & adapter (supplied)
Used crank gears set (supplied)
NOS Main bearing KS German (supplied)
NOS OEM Sump plate set (supplied)
NOS Berg 1.4:1 ratio rockers (supplied)
NOS Berg 1.5qt oil sump (supplied)
Used Berg Acheiver pulley (supplied)
Used 12V Ignition Coil (supplied)
Used Distributor drive w/washers & spring (supplied)
NOS Carrillo 5.352" (not the 5.4" set) Connecting Rods (supplied)
NOS Mallory Unilite Distributor w/Vacuum (supplied)
NOS Bosch Ignition Wire Set (supplied)
Used Pair of DRD L6 Heads (supplied)
Used Match ported IDF intake manifolds by DRD (supplied),
New Pair Berg vented valve covers (AN-8 ports) w/fabricated lines AN-8 fitting (supplied)
Nos Berg Breather Tower w/AN-8 fitting (supplied)
New Set of Berg Chromoly pushrods (supplied)
NOS 2 X KS cam bearing, German, single thrust (to use as a double thrust set) (supplied)
New German engine gasket set (supplied)
New Plated engine case hardware set (supplied)
New 12lb lightened flywheel, 8-dowels, VW OG German purchased origianlly from aircooled.net (supplied)
Used Berg pulley stud kit (supplied)
New Berg rockers stud kit (supplied)
New Berg rockers shim kit (supplied)
New Berg valve lash caps kit (supplied)
New Berg exhaust installation kit (supplied)
New Berg oil sump installation kit (supplied)
New Cam gear (supplied by the engine builder)
End play shims (supplied by the engine builder)
cnc al spring loaded push rod tubes , with double o ring seals (supplied by the engine builder)
26mm oil pump (supplied by the engine builder)
Flywheel O ring (supplied by the engine builder)
Engine nut kit (supplied by the engine builder)
HD grand nut (supplied by the engine builder)
LN Nickies 94mm Clylinder and matching JE pistons (supplied)
Raceware 8mm stud kit (supplied)

Eventually, the engine was assembled and when the engine was put on the Dyno, the engine builder realized and infomed that the Dell 45s was having a drip problem and that the engine builder is going to drop the engine from the Dyno and crate it and have it shipped out to me. I have not received the Dyno Engine Performance chart and please correct me if I am wrong, the carb drip would cause the engine to run rich and that hurts HPs. Therefore, an opinmal engine performance chart cannnot be obatined. I then sent the engine builder an email trying to work out a way to fix the drip of the carbs and when this is done, we would then be ready to put the engine back to the Dyno to ensure the engine 'system' runs properly before it is crated. IMHO, the very reason to have the engine put on Dyno is to ensure that everything including the carbs are tuned in correctly, besides breaking it in, performance chart obtained, before the engine is crated and shipped.

I even offered to send the carbs to either Mark Harney or Art of ACE for the Drip fix and when they come back, the engine can then be tuned in properly and Dyno perfromance chart obtained. The engine builder insisted that he has completed the project and refused to work finding a fix for the carbs.

My question is, in this instance, has the engine builder completed his job for this engine build project - assemble, tuning, fixing problems during the build process, break-in the engine and provide a proper engine performance chart of the engine, crate and ship the engine as is? Or he should work with the customer to fix the Carb Drip and continue with the tuning and proper Dyno session?

[baked beetle]

It should be no problem whatsoever to send the carbs out, have them repaired and finish his job. Not sure why he is not interested in letting that happen.
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[Wayne26]

The invoice does say "and correct and problems"

just send him this thread. lol

[slalombuggy]

I wouldn't accept it till you have the carbs fixed and sent back and he has done what he has agreed to do, run on the dyno and tune it. It's not like you are asking him to fix the carbs on his dime, you're paying and have payed for a complete, TUNED engine.

brad
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[jl_1303]

About 30 mins ago, I asked for the correct Dyno chart and have received the following reply from the engine builder,

You statement is valid, about not giving a correct dyno chart.
We will issued a credit of $250.00 for dyno tunning on this.
The crate is expected to picked up next week, and payment is expected for the crating cost.

Obviously, the engine builder has lost interest in this engine build project which we agreed upon and that he committed to in 2010.

It is also clear that he is now trying to do anything to push me out so that he could use the space and his Dyno setup for another one of his customers, when he feels like it. IMO, this should not be how we do business, especially in the already diminishing VW aircooled community. I feel rather sad about this.

My argument is if the engine builder is not able to provide a correct engine Dyno chart, how could he prove to the customer (me) that the engine has been assembled, tuned in and broken in correctly?

[69 Jim]

I sure would like to hear the builder's side of the story...

[RailBoy]

Don't forget about the feedback section on this one, like to hear names and places so not to intrude upon another victom, thing is my builder has reputable feedback so why not for any builder who takes money or is professional, they should be just as professional about there service as taking money and sticking to what they say they are obligated to fulfill for the build as described before hand... RB

[[email protected]]

If you accept the credit the contract will be completed. The problem with that is IF the engine has a problem you are stuck with it.

If it was me I'd have him put on a set of temporary carbs to verify the timing is done, there are no leaks or other problems, and you can then deal with the carb problem on your own.

If he's a real builder he has some dual 44s or 48 IDFs lying around. The Dellorto drip would not affect the WOT pulls on the dyno, it affects idle and part throttle only, and has nothing to do with checking the engine out nor breaking it in.
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[yamaducci]

This sounds like someone I had dealings with and all too familiar. If they are in the feedback threads I suggest you put something there after this is done and lay their name out here.
As far as your issue, I think there are problems at both sides.
There were a lot or user supplied and Used parts that may have had issues beyond the builders control and/ or knowledge. I think it may have been ambiguous for him to quote a price when using used parts; and then, using blanket statements like "Includes dyno time" and "Correct problems". You also did not have him clarify and made a few assumptions. His "dyno time" may mean confirm oil pressure, valve re-adjustment and basic running condition.
As a builder , I would think, I would only be correcting my own problems and not ones related to used parts unless those additional issues were paid for. That said, I would accept the business and make the repairs. I would also be explicitly clear about what I was doing in writing on the estimate. Another note about Blue Printing is that people throw this word around to make Huge Money for free. Did you get a Blueprint sheet(s) either. It takes A LOT of time to do correctly without even doing any corrective machining.
The Dyno time is ambiguous by not saying he would make jet changes, how many oil changes he would make, valve adjustments, etc. Some people do this so much they assume the customer knows exactly what they will and will not do. Nothing is explicit here unless you have mis-quoted or not given us the full verbiage. As a customer I would tend to have similar expectations as you do.
I hope this all works out but if this guy is on Batavia St in Orange , Ca I doubt you will be satisfied with the outcome.
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[jl_1303]

Good news!

The engine builder finally agreed to help work this out and send the Dell 45s to Art of ACE for the Drip repair.

When they are back from Art after the repair and all other necessary tuning/jetting according to my engine requirement, he will put them on the Dyno to continue with the unfinished session and run the Dyno chart.

I will continue to report the case as it goes along...,

[jl_1303]

[quote="yamaducci"]Did you get a Blueprint sheet(s) either. It takes A LOT of time to do correctly without even doing any corrective machining.
quote]

BTW, what is a Blueprint Sheet? Please enlighten me.

[Tbirdusa]

Just guessing but I imagine the guy reads the Samba. Ah, behold the power of the internet.
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[draven898]

a year ?

[baked beetle]

A blueprint sheet shows that it took the builder many more hours than just assembling an engine. It would show that all parts and clearances were measured, bearing clearances, ring gaps, oh my, the list goes on.

I would be wanting to see a sheet if you paid extra for it. Shit, I even have a basic sheet for stock engines. let alone something like this.
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These days people like me are hard to find- we don't give a damn what you think, about what we think. - JR
____________________
66' His
57' Theirs
63' Hers
62' Drag Bug - Theirs 13.1 @ 101 mph (GONE)

[MURZI]

1500 labor huh?? Damn I may have to go up on my pricing. Is this a typical labor rate to "build" ( meaning complete through checking of everything, valve geometry, break in and, carb jetting etc)????

What is typical???
Clean and inspect parts, preassemble,
Measure mic and adjust clearances ....bearings, rods side clearance, rings, stroker clearnce on case and cam, set deck height, reassemble
Set up valve geometry including cutting and assembling pushrods
Break in,
Tuning in car including jetting.
Full documentation

I am guessing my 600-800 is chump change.......
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Quit playing...build a 2276 and be done with it.......

[yamaducci]

[quote="jl_1303"]

[mark tucker]

I mark my parts with a blue majick marker. not many have the tools much less the knolage to do it right or do it at all.and the basic checks are usualy ok on street&mild stuff where as a super stock or class motor mat take a hell of a lot more to get the most leagly out of it.there there is the all out rece stuff where the little shit dont count,your trying to make sure it is right &+-.001 on rod length dont mean squat,but many other clearances & quality do.just try to work with him & get it over with ,then have fun in your new toy.(dont forget to change the oil&filterZ)

[mcmscott]

The problem I see is it comes down to money( My opinion ), Most shops rely on part markup as well as labor costs to operate, when someone supplys 99% of the parts they are in essence taking away the proffit. Working for free sucks. After you factor in overhead he probably didn't make any proffit. I'm sure rent in So Cal is cheap right? It's kinda like the old saying"You wouldn't bring your own steak to a steakhouse would you?" Just my opinion, and when someone brings there own parts into my shop the labor goes up and any warrenty goes out the window.

[Jake Raby]

If an engine on my dyno experienced "Dellorto Drip" I would abort the testing with those carburetors (before the rich condition washed the cylinder walls down, glazed the rings and cylinder(s) and caused further issues.

I would then immediately send the problematic carbs to Art Thraen (overnight) for them to be repaired. Then throw a set of my test carbs on the engine and continue to verify its mechanical integrity and baseline tune the timing and etc.

Leave the engine on the dyno and await the original carbs to be returned, or if I had to pull it off and then re-test if I had to have the dyno for something else.

Finish it off by optimizing the engine with the repaired carburetors so the end user has a greatly increased chance at bolt in success at initial start up. Thats the definition of "turn-key" to me. I have had this exact occurrence happen to me in the past and this is exactly how I handled it.. Today, to avoid these things I send the carbs to Art up front so time isn't wasted and the job is done right without wasting my time.
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Raby Engine Development
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[Bruce]