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samwise
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Joined: May 04, 2010
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Location: North Salt Lake, Utah
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 Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: 1979 cranks but won't start |
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The 79 that I just bought will crank but won't start.
It appears to be wired up correctly (2 x black on 15, 1 x green and 1 x white on 1 on the coil), and the green wire goes off to a harness that leads to a box on the firewall (presumably the ignition control unit?
The PO fitted a wire on an alligator clip directly from the positive battery post to a spare terminal on 15 on the coil, and the engine will then start (although it doesn't run well - stalls on deceleration and idling).
Could this be something nasty like the ignition control unit failing?
Also, above the fan I have this thicker gray wire that ends in a male three print plug - any ideas?
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1979 7-passenger bus
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airkooledchris
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Joined: January 25, 2005
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Location: Eureka, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1979 cranks but won't start |
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| samwise wrote: | above the fan I have this thicker gray wire that ends in a male three print plug - any ideas?
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congrats on the bus. got any more pics?
that 3 prong plug is for a dealer diagnostic connection. don't cut it off, but tuck it away since it isn't in use. (aka don't worry that it isn't connected to anything, it isn't supposed to be.)
More importantly, what's with that big hose just behind in that picture that appears to be cut and just hanging? If that is coming out of your deceleration valve you may have found another source of your problems.
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secretsubmariner
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Joined: January 08, 2011
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Location: Midtown, watching cops lights go by. 74112
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: 1979 cranks but won't start |
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| samwise wrote: | The 79 that I just bought will crank but won't start.
It appears to be wired up correctly (2 x black on 15, 1 x green and 1 x white on 1 on the coil), and the green wire goes off to a harness that leads to a box on the firewall (presumably the ignition control unit?
The PO fitted a wire on an alligator clip directly from the positive battery post to a spare terminal on 15 on the coil, and the engine will then start (although it doesn't run well - stalls on deceleration and idling).
Could this be something nasty like the ignition control unit failing?
Also, above the fan I have this thicker gray wire that ends in a male three print plug - any ideas?
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Wow, I just went through all this stuff.
The gray three pronger you've got there..does it come from up near the throttle body? If so it is prehistoric VW diagnostic wiring...tie it up and out of the way. Now for the rest of the wiring...the green wire on mine goes from coil to distributor.. Yours looks a lil funky. Do you know for sure that your coil is good?
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-Tony
1978 Champagne- "Lord Puber"- first love.
1978 Champagne- "Scuttlebutt"
1978 Deluxe Auto Westfalia- "Samsquantch"
| Amskeptic wrote: | | Anybody dissing any year air-cooled Volkswagen is not on board. |
| germansupplyscott wrote: | | i like auto transmissions in buses. it's a lot easier to roll a joint while driving with an automatic. |
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samwise
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Location: North Salt Lake, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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The engine does start when terminal 15 on the coil is connected directly to the battery, so I would assume that the coil is fine 
Oh, and the green wire disappears into the harness that leads to the right hand unit on the firewall (part no. 211 905 531).
The wiring diagram for a 79 appears to show two black cables from coil terminal 15 (going to fresh air fan relay (fan works) and the fuse for the back-up lights (they work too). Green from terminal 1 to Ignition Control Unit and white form terminal 1 to AFC control unit. There also the HT lead from terminal 4 to the distributor, which is also present.
All the photos so far can be found here. I can of course take more and upload them straight away - the joys of not working during daylight hours 
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Ben
1979 7-passenger bus
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airkooledchris
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Joined: January 25, 2005
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Location: Eureka, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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You will want to install a foam seal to keep the heat out of your engine bay. Don't run it too long before installing the engine compartment seal.
that might be pushrod tube seals, at the minimum, but certainly check your valve cover gaskets for a quick fix to some of this oil leak.
your decel valve does appear to be connected properly, but it may be bad (more on that in a minute)
In the above picture is that hose I thought was cut, but really it's apparently a spliced together mess for connecting the AAR (aux air regulator) to the S-boot.
While this is the correct connections and routing for those two parts, id get a correct hose to connect the AAR to the S-boot first.
Next, you could see if disconnecting the Decel valve helps with your idle and decel problems. Disconnecting it isn't rocket science, you'll just need to plug 3 lines where it normally connected. Rubber plugs from the hardware store for the T on the left side of the engine compartment and the plastic connection at the S-boot and a small golf Tee for the vacuum line on the other side will provide enough of a temporary bypass to test the behavior.
you have a 79 California specific model, with electronic ignition, same as me. unfortunately I cannot speculate on why the coil is setup the way it is, but if you want pictures or confirmations from a working setup of the same year - let me know and ill get some to you.
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samwise
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Pictures would be good, thanks - notice the clear tube coming down from the air cleaner - that isn't connected to anything, should it be?
My Bentley is on its way, but not here yet, hence the more inane questions
Is it a particular hose, or one I can pick up at NAPA or similar? Tried looking on BusDepot but not sure which one I'm looking for.
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Ben
1979 7-passenger bus
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, Land of the giant flying moose!
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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If it runs when the alligator clip is jumping it to the battery I'd be looking at the ignition switch or something else up front first. Assuming the black wire from the RF corner of the engine compartment that goes to the booster fan relay and then to the coil is intact and the idiot lights, etc. work start at the bottom of the fuse box where the front end of that black wire connects.
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samwise
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secretsubmariner
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| samwise wrote: | | so I would assume that the coil is fine |
Assume makes an 'Ass' out of 'u' and 'me' man!
Just looked at all your engine photos. Looks like a really nice start. Just a word of advice from recent experience- all of those vaccuum hoses look like they need replacing.
I had my bus running, and it kept dying. I replaced all the hoses in the compartment and now it runs much steadier. Alot of yours look frayed at the ends. Just my two cents. Hopefully the senior FI advisors will be able to help. (You checked the sticky on FI trouble shooting at the top of the forum?)
Looks like Chris beat me to the first reply, oops!
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-Tony
1978 Champagne- "Lord Puber"- first love.
1978 Champagne- "Scuttlebutt"
1978 Deluxe Auto Westfalia- "Samsquantch"
| Amskeptic wrote: | | Anybody dissing any year air-cooled Volkswagen is not on board. |
| germansupplyscott wrote: | | i like auto transmissions in buses. it's a lot easier to roll a joint while driving with an automatic. |
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samwise
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, i'm trying to do one step at a time - get the motor starting on normal wiring and from the key, then I'll move on to the actual running issues.
The coil could be fubar'd, but as it starts when directly connected to the battery, wouldn't that rule that out? 
And yes engine to body seal is on the way.
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Ben
1979 7-passenger bus
Rallybugs
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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The coil is fine for now if it runs, have a look at the plug beneath the ignition switch and try a spare switch if you have one.
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Wanted, 68-73 westy OG plaid curtains, singles OK. |
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samwise
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: | | The coil is fine for now if it runs, have a look at the plug beneath the ignition switch and try a spare switch if you have one. |
I don't alas - the joys of just starting out. Not sure if this is what I need?
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Ben
1979 7-passenger bus
Rallybugs
Harvee the Wonder Bus' pics
Harvee's blog |
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airkooledchris
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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http://ratwell.com/technical/VacuumHoses.html
this page will help you with your vacuum hoses, so you know the sizes to track down/etc.
the big clear one coming off of the air cleaner is usually connected to the charcoal canister, a round black thing over by your battery next to the tail light housing.
the next thing you should get a picture of is the back of the starter and solenoid. that might help figure out why your starting setup is wonky, as someone has obviously tried to bypass a fault somewhere....
wow, we just had an earthquake here. interrupted my chain of thought a bit.
anyway, fixing the whole 'how it's connected/started' is a good idea, but the 'how it's running' part is a lot more important. I still use the previous owner of my busses setup in that the key must be in to start it, but a push button has to do the cranking. it'll also crank without a key, but it won't start without the key in and in the on position. ive learned to live with it this way (there are some benefits, albeit small ones, to it setup this way.)
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samwise
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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your bus looks like it originally had a california spec coil. the white plastic housing i see on the coil 1 terminal is CA only and there are some other clues i see in your photos. your post mentions a control unit on the firewall. if you have this unit and if your distributor has a 3-wire plug on the side, then you have '79 CA ignition. the blue coil in your photo will not work with the CA '79 ignition system.
so you need to verify you have the right combination of ignition components before going any further.
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VW Bus-Centric Online Parts Source
Last edited by germansupplyscott on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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samwise
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Randy in Maine
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, what is the number embossed on the side of the distributor?
Does it sort of look like this (with a cable that plugs into the side of it?)
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samwise
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airkooledchris
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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that thing on the right is probably connected to your distributor, and plugs into that clip shown in Randy's photo above.
Scott is correct in that you should have the matching coil for it.
You can pick up a spare CA specific cold, as well as distributor and module here as well: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1220431
My ignition coil is black, with the part number 211905115B on it.
I don't know who makes it' but busdepot has a generic replacement for it here for just $24.95
[/url]
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germansupplyscott
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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yes that's the coil. you'll also have to make sure your ignition control unit hasn't been damaged due to using the wrong coil. not sure 100%, but i think it's possible to hurt the control unit with the wrong coil.
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scott lyons
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