can we improve brake system with few investments?

[maco70]

I would like just to improve a bit, if possible, the braking system of my vanagon 1986.

Could it be possible, kind of clever things, without the investment for a big brake kit that i believe would be the best.

Thanks in advance for ideas, if existing.
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Martin from Montréal

1986 Vanagon GL full camper westfalia
(brown/tan interior)

[James 93SLC]

[BoneMachine]

Replacing your flex lines with stainless steel reinforced lines would be a good start.
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'85 Wolfsburg Edition Westfalia Weekender, Zetec #36, w/ Peloquin TBD
'83.5 Westfalia, full camper (we'll never forget you)

[Ahwahnee]

[buildyourown]

I'm willing to bet that 50% of the improvement people feel with big brake kits is actually due to fresh parts and fluid.
So yeah, I would do rebuilt calipers, new hoses and fresh fluid.

[scobax]

I might add that using DOT4 fluid instead of DOT3 when changing the fluid would be an improvement as well.

DOT4 has a higher boiling point than 3 which would help to reduce the fade which comes from overheating of the stock brakes that commonly occurs during sustained high brake load situations.

You just need to boil the fluid once to get the picture... it's scary !!
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Current fleet: 87 Syncro Westy, 85 Golf diesel, 81 Caddy diesel

“The word adventure has gotten overused. For me, when everything goes wrong, that's when adventure starts” -Yvon Chouinard

[danfromsyr]

Xs2 on above
flush fluid, replace rubber, NEW ROTORS & pads, fully seat/adjust rear shoes (possibly shim lower shoe seat)
for 80-85 front calipers, make sure the pistons are fully free,
exercise them w/o the pads (use a plastic/wood shim) and make sure that ALL 4 pistons move freely and smoothly. if any one of the 2 pistons on each caliper drags you'll lose %50 of the Pad force.

*I can stop my 1980 with stock brakes faster than the contents inside.. skid/squawk the tires on dry roads.. but this is 1st time in ~8yrs ownership I got the stock brakes fully dialed in.

on 2 of our vans (automatics) we changed the small oem pedal with a larger (audi) pedal

but in the refitment process we added ~1in more length (leverage)
allows less foot pressure and feels much better
mom reports a much improved sense of braking..
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VW Club of Central New York SPRING VW GTG
Upstate NY 2013 VWCCNY events
NY State VW Camping 2013 season events

[dubbified]

When I stripped all chassis systems, cables, pipes, hoses.. it was a real mess of a job... The PO had heavy buildup of backwood dirt, grime/grease.. it literally looked like Holiday Fudge, about 1/4 inch thick, solid..

I removed all the dirt, pressurewashed, brushed, cleaned so i could asess the condition.

I pulled all hardlines off the chassis, and went down to Napa, picked up a cutter and a double flare tool from harborfreight.

Within a couple hours I was able to fabricate and mount up new hardlines.

Also going to Stainless Steel flex lines and replacing all hydraulics, Master to calipers really set things straight.

However, I should have picked up new larger brake components for the front discs..

Front chunks are solid, not easily letting go of heat.

I just picked up an dual piston Audi/passat brake combination using the 282mm vented, crossdrilled rotors.

problem is, i'd like to find a better pad than PBRdeluxe for the Audi 200 model..

You should definitely look into proactively replacing hard line if its deteriorated, or replace it proactively to ensure you DONT have an issue.

To me, being loaded up, running in mountains, grades.. I just wont risk it. Its gotta be replaced by my hands to be certain.

You can always make a car drive or handle faster.. but it HAS To brake better than either so my shop teacher told me.

Good teacher.

[randywebb]

I'm willing to bet that 80% of the improvement people feel with flex mesh covered brake hoses is actually due to fresh parts and fluid.

If you do use them, be aware that there have been a number of catastrophic failures and that they should be replaced every year, since unlike the rubber hoses, you cannot check them for problems.

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The larger issue is what exactly is the problem that you are having that makes you want to modify the braking system??

Generally, people are reacting to the issues of trying to stop a very heavy vehicle quickly, or to improper maintenance of the system.

If you can make the tires skid after doing a fluid change (must be done every 2-3 years) and after replacing the old rubber hoses with new rubber hoses, then you do NOT have a brake torque problem.

Given the above, if you encounter brake fade after long downhill stretches of braking or during your next race on the track, then bigger rotors can absorb the heat build up and avoid fade.

If neither happens, you are driving a vehicle that is too heavy and THAT is your problem.
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.

[oreana123]

If you do use them, be aware that there have been a number of catastrophic failures and that they should be replaced every year, since unlike the rubber hoses, you cannot check them for problems.

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This is not a problem with SS mesh covered hoses, which are used in industry and aviation. The materials are the same on the inside basically, the SS mesh just makes them more solid (as well as reducing damage due to abrasion). Whatever you are hearing about catastrophic breakdown of SS re-inforced hydraulic lines is a problem with whoever is making the hoses up, not with SS mesh covered hyd lines in general. Also, what possible criteria could be applied to inspection of hoses without SS mesh covering? It holds the pressure or is doesn't. In one year of use, neither hose will show any deterioration, or it was made up from crap to begin with.

[danfromsyr]

Buggy "off road use" SS hoses are just a SS mesh over the teflon tube, which captures grit and can chafe resulting in failure
DOT "approved" SS hoses have a sealed plastic outer cover and eliminates grit contamination in the SS mesh. they can still rub or be overstretched by poor handling & installations resulting in failures.. rubber hoses have similiar circumstances.

I bought my last sets from a ebay auction for BMW motorcycle SS brake hoses they were ~$23 ea in any ends/length to 70" in a selection of colors

and I do agree that many see improved braking during upgrades in just the fact that the fluid, hoses, rotors, pads, calipers are all new and no longer working upto spec..

on our AT driven vans we're after brake fade from long decents.. not the immediate jamming on brakes in traffic. for that stock work fine (except w/more HP on the Turbovan)
but down long hills the brake fade is scary at times..

we've upgraded the fluid for a higher boiling point. but we're probably running cheap (know we are) Pads that create the fade w/heat..

are there any stock caliper performance pads that are recommended?
_________________
VW Club of Central New York SPRING VW GTG
Upstate NY 2013 VWCCNY events
NY State VW Camping 2013 season events

[dubbified]

my SS lines were fabricated with a clear nylon coating, which isnt goin anywhere.

[maco70]

Wow ! Very nice and clever comments. It's very helpful.

So, nothing special to do with the master cylinder and the calipers, since they still work ?

I mean... can we make a kind of maintenance on those items, or it's just very good to replace them after 26 years, even they still work fine (or seem to work fine...)

Thanks again, it's very helpful
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Martin from Montréal

1986 Vanagon GL full camper westfalia
(brown/tan interior)

[danfromsyr]

some people install a larger BMW brake booster for easier pedal feel

we just extended the leverage on the brake pedal a little.

both increase braking leverage by decreasing pedal effort.
_________________
VW Club of Central New York SPRING VW GTG
Upstate NY 2013 VWCCNY events
NY State VW Camping 2013 season events

[dubbified]

I'm curious if there's a larger MC..

I replaced my 1991 gti 19mm mc with a other car's 22mm MC.

mmmm..

[Wildthings]

[r39o]

[danfromsyr]

it's not a direct fit, it was just cut off (and welded on) an AT brake pedal from a 85-89 Audi 5000 we were partingout..
noticed it was regular size and the vanagon AT uses the standard's brake pedal.

cut each off, clamped ont he new wider AT pedal and gave a few seated test tries.. then welded the brackets.

my Brother's is better fit for me, mom's is a little high.. but again we'd asked her where/how it felt best..
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VW Club of Central New York SPRING VW GTG
Upstate NY 2013 VWCCNY events
NY State VW Camping 2013 season events

[dhaavers]

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp...ccessories

Higher dry & wet boiling points than off-the-shelf fluids.
Makes for less brake fade as you're "comin' down the mountain"

Also check out the "link-in-the-link" to the amber-colored cousin...
...makes for easy bleeding: just alternate colors. Two colors/identical specs.
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86 White Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"

[presslab]

R4-S pads and shoes from http://www.porterfield-brakes.com. I ran these on my stock brakes, and I run them on my big brakes too.

A larger MC will give you a nicer feeling pedal (firm) but it will actually require more pedal force for the same braking force.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti