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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 14435
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| RailBoy wrote: |
| All you can do is makes notes of your valve lash and if they open up, you have a problem... |
The Scat lifter problem killing a cam doesn't show up when you're setting your lash. That's because you set the lash on the backside of the lobe, not the top. You'll see the effects of Scat lifters when you measure full cam lift.
By the time you've lost about ¼" of any one lobe, you'll notice the engine is down on power. And it starts to run really smooth......
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| Glenn wrote: |
| ..... and like them better than Bosch. |
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66brm
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Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 2537
Location: Perth Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| RailBoy wrote: |
| All you can do is makes notes of your valve lash and if they open up, you have a problem... |
The Scat lifter problem killing a cam doesn't show up when you're setting your lash. That's because you set the lash on the backside of the lobe, not the top. You'll see the effects of Scat lifters when you measure full cam lift.
By the time you've lost about ¼" of any one lobe, you'll notice the engine is down on power. And it starts to run really smooth...... |
What about when running loose zero, on chromoly pushrods? I'm sure I will notice if one pair consistently opens up
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| modok wrote: |
| I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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Stuntmanus
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Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| RailBoy wrote: |
| All you can do is makes notes of your valve lash and if they open up, you have a problem... |
The Scat lifter problem killing a cam doesn't show up when you're setting your lash. That's because you set the lash on the backside of the lobe, not the top. You'll see the effects of Scat lifters when you measure full cam lift.
By the time you've lost about ¼" of any one lobe, you'll notice the engine is down on power. And it starts to run really smooth...... |
What about when running loose zero, on chromoly pushrods? I'm sure I will notice if one pair consistently opens up |
I did not noticed any of the valve lashes opening up. This is just a pitting, without any noise, just the start of the "show".
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Stuntmanus
1974 VW 1303 RS 2110
1972 VW 1302
"Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" |
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Stuntmanus
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Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Scat lifters pitting again? |
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| modok wrote: |
| wompninja wrote: |
| Stuntmanus wrote: |
| I already lost two sets of lifters, the first was a febi german one. |
You guys are fixating on the fact that he used Scat lifters. He said the same thing happened with german lifters before the scat problem so obviously the problem isn't the lifters, it's something else. |
no, the parts are behaving as expected, nothing new here
stock lifters are too soft,
scat are too hard
CB lightweight lifters are compatible with regular "EP" cam blanks
If your cam says has SC-1 cast into it, it is a hard blank, and only should be used with steel or scat lifters. If the cam is ok, you can just replace the lifters with new scats, that should hold up another 10 thousand miles, or a lot more maybe |
Thanks Modok for chime in.
The cam is a SC-1, also G9 and 32 numbers are casted/stamped.
At this point I really do not know what to do, also thinking of a cam change, altough it is spotless.
I do not want to tear apart the engine case every 10 thousand miles.
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Stuntmanus
1974 VW 1303 RS 2110
1972 VW 1302
"Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" |
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SRP1
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Joined: January 06, 2007
Posts: 3995
Location: Escondido, CA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Scat lifters pitting again? |
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| Stuntmanus wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| wompninja wrote: |
| Stuntmanus wrote: |
| I already lost two sets of lifters, the first was a febi german one. |
You guys are fixating on the fact that he used Scat lifters. He said the same thing happened with german lifters before the scat problem so obviously the problem isn't the lifters, it's something else. |
no, the parts are behaving as expected, nothing new here
stock lifters are too soft,
scat are too hard
CB lightweight lifters are compatible with regular "EP" cam blanks
If your cam says has SC-1 cast into it, it is a hard blank, and only should be used with steel or scat lifters. If the cam is ok, you can just replace the lifters with new scats, that should hold up another 10 thousand miles, or a lot more maybe |
Thanks Modok for chime in.
The cam is a SC-1, also G9 and 32 numbers are casted/stamped.
At this point I really do not know what to do, also thinking of a cam change, altough it is spotless.
I do not want to tear apart the engine case every 10 thousand miles. |
Simple;
Engle cam with Engle lifters
or
Engle cam with CB lightweight lifters
Both of those combo's have been proven to work, I prefer the Engle cam with the CB lightweights combo. However admittedly, I have not run the Engle lifters yet.
Keep your oil type correct, high zddp. I use only Amsoil, Z-rod for street engine, and dominator racing for race engines. I do not worry about removing springs, running lower ratio rockers (hint), etc when breaking in cams, never had a reason to.
I have no input on the Snake oil. I realize Jake developed it, but have not seen a spec sheet on its performance????????? Jake
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Performance Plumbing- AN fittings, Braided hoses, Fire Sleeve.... |
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vwracerdave
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Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 8123
Location: OKLAHOMA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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I use Engle cams with Bugpack lifters and have no problems.
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 8796
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed my friend, it is surprising that the lifters fail that way, but it is better than the lifters and cam wearing to dust right away. Many VW enthusiasts end up tearing down the engine yearly(for one reason or another, or just for fun), so it is no trouble to keep eye on the scat lifters.
Seems to be what your doing right now......
Solutions, in order of increasing quality and $$$
-replace lifters with new scats
-engle cam and engle lifters
-A web #110(or other grind if you want to change) and CB lightweight lifters
-Udo's steel lifters |
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66brm
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Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 2537
Location: Perth Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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If mine has a failure I think I'll go silly on it, a set of wedgeports, 86C and Udo's, with MS2 and 48mm throttle bodies. Should be a fun driver
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Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
| modok wrote: |
| I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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DarthWeber
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Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7557
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| 66brm wrote: |
| If mine has a failure I think I'll go silly on it, a set of wedgeports, 86C and Udo's, with MS2 and 48mm throttle bodies. |
To that end might I suggest to add a can of valve grinding compound with your next oil change? 
_________________
| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum.  |
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66brm
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Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 2537
Location: Perth Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
| 66brm wrote: |
| If mine has a failure I think I'll go silly on it, a set of wedgeports, 86C and Udo's, with MS2 and 48mm throttle bodies. |
To that end might I suggest to add a can of valve grinding compound with your next oil change? |
Once I get the MS sorted on it now I'll see how the car performs, if its not what I want then we'll see
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Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
| modok wrote: |
| I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 14435
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| RailBoy wrote: |
| All you can do is makes notes of your valve lash and if they open up, you have a problem... |
The Scat lifter problem killing a cam doesn't show up when you're setting your lash. That's because you set the lash on the backside of the lobe, not the top. You'll see the effects of Scat lifters when you measure full cam lift.
By the time you've lost about ¼" of any one lobe, you'll notice the engine is down on power. And it starts to run really smooth...... |
What about when running loose zero, on chromoly pushrods? I'm sure I will notice if one pair consistently opens up |
Hello! The lash doesn't change! The wear happens on the other end of the cam lobe.
When Scat lifters did exactly that in my engine (with zero lash/steel pushrods), the lash never changed one bit. But ¼" was ground off the tip of one lobe.
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| Glenn wrote: |
| ..... and like them better than Bosch. |
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Stuntmanus
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
Solutions, in order of increasing quality and $$$
-engle cam and engle lifters
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I think I will be riding this way. I had sent a letter with pics to Scat to see what they say, if any.
Engle cams has to be clearanced to 82 mm stroker crank with vw journal. (?)
Engle W120 will be my choice, I think.
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Stuntmanus
1974 VW 1303 RS 2110
1972 VW 1302
"Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" |
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 14435
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| Stuntmanus wrote: |
| I had sent a letter with pics to Scat to see what they say, if any. |
Post it here!
I predict they will say they've never seen this before.
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| Glenn wrote: |
| ..... and like them better than Bosch. |
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Stuntmanus
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Stuntmanus wrote: |
| I had sent a letter with pics to Scat to see what they say, if any. |
Post it here!
I predict they will say they've never seen this before. |
https://picasaweb.google.com/112829817207119585167...8z-tNL72wE
Dear Sirs,
I had torn apart the engine because of different reasons and I found this (see pictures) on 3 of my 8 lifters.
This is C45 cam, HiRev Scat lifters, Scat double springs and Scat CroMoly pushrods, Scat pro street 1.25 lifters.
The engine had covered 6000 miles. The break in was done as per suggested on the cam spec sheet, the oil was SAE 10W40 with ZDDP additive for break in, afterwards Valvoline 10W40 as used to have in my engines.
The cam had survived, but what lifters should I use?
Any info would be welcome.
Best Regards
It was sent to [email protected]
[/url]
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Stuntmanus
1974 VW 1303 RS 2110
1972 VW 1302
"Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 3783
Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Scat lifters pitting again? |
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| modok wrote: |
| wompninja wrote: |
| Stuntmanus wrote: |
| I already lost two sets of lifters, the first was a febi german one. |
You guys are fixating on the fact that he used Scat lifters. He said the same thing happened with german lifters before the scat problem so obviously the problem isn't the lifters, it's something else. |
no, the parts are behaving as expected, nothing new here
stock lifters are too soft,
scat are too hard
CB lightweight lifters are compatible with regular "EP" cam blanks
If your cam says has SC-1 cast into it, it is a hard blank, and only should be used with steel or scat lifters. If the cam is ok, you can just replace the lifters with new scats, that should hold up another 10 thousand miles, or a lot more maybe |
I just recieved my Steve Long cam and it's ground on a SC-1 blank. So what you're saying is my CB lightweights aren't compatible?????
brad
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 6927
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I have no input on the Snake oil. I realize Jake developed it, but have not seen a spec sheet on its performance????????? Jake |
The oil was co-developed by my company and Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil. Lake Speed and I have put several years into the product and now they are selling a derivative of it to their retailers known as DT50. This oil has the Aircooled Technology seal right on the bottle.
When working with a company like Joe Gibbs Racing is not just a bunch of hoopla and guessing, the money and time has been spent in all the right areas with the oil being formulated and produced by Lubrizol.
I only cared about development of the oil for our engine programs and that holds true today. This is the only oil we have used in our engines for the past three years in both the Aircooled Technology and Flat 6 Innovations divisions with 5 different "flavors" of the oil for aircooled and modern water-cooled Porsche engines. During this period we have evaluated many engines from the street and track to include UOA and teardown inspections after dyno/ street/ track time and the results have been astonishing.
I currently have no plans to sell this oil to the public, (only to our engine purchasers as thats who we developed it to support) but DT50 can be bought from any Gibbs retailer after Daytona... All the focus has been on the big race for the past few months and we are almost out of oil ourselves!
That said, oil is just one element of the equation to cam and lifter life. The biggest issues I have seen with longevity of cams and lifters have been related to third world manufacturing and a total lack of quality control.
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Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
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youngstah
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Joined: December 28, 2008
Posts: 81
Location: california
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: |
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What do you guys think about Amsoil as a regular application? There's a huge supply depot locally...
I'm running lube a lobes, and an engle 120. I think it's scat sourced.also running dual springs. Really nervous about all this pitting crap. Still haven't broken in my motor...Should I just tear it down and put Udo's inrightful robust right from the start? Or is the metallurgy Something I should look into further before forkin out more cash...Really don't want a tear down for a while... |
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jfats808
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Joined: December 10, 2007
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Location: oahu hawaii
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Get cb lightwieghts or bugpack. Users have already mentioned compatibility. Scats are reported to be good on sc 1 cores. Udos are a good idea if u plan to do multiple cam swaps. Like pure racing. Otherwise your typical engine should last 50 k at the minimum on average.
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marcotheturbosteamengine
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 7
Location: UK/ITALY
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| you must always run Cam-shield in the oil 100% all the time, I use the "Brake in / racing " bottle with 5L of oil and have not have a lifter/follower wear problem since, witch holds a minimum of 1600ppm of zddp in the oil all the time, not just when braking in the engine but all the time. |
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Stuntmanus
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Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 251
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| marcotheturbosteamengine wrote: |
| you must always run Cam-shield in the oil 100% all the time, I use the "Brake in / racing " bottle with 5L of oil and have not have a lifter/follower wear problem since, witch holds a minimum of 1600ppm of zddp in the oil all the time, not just when braking in the engine but all the time. |
This is not available here in Hungary. We have only one additives which contains ZDDP in not known amount.
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Stuntmanus
1974 VW 1303 RS 2110
1972 VW 1302
"Look man, I am not Mr. Lebowski, I am the Dude...!" |
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