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jeromecasi
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Stlouis
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 Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject: 79 VW Trike - Brake problems....stumped |
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Hey everyone,
I just got a 79 trike that is in phenomenal condition. I am going through and replacing all the fluids and noticed the brakes are pretty squishy. I lost fluid on left side. So I replace the wheel cylinder on both. Things were pretty rusted inside.
The left side lost alot of fluid, after I refilled resevoir, I bleed the brakes, and adjusted (tightened untill the grabbed then back off 3 clicks). The left side would lock almost immdiately, and the right side I could still spin. (there was resistance but probably only half of driver side).
When I brake on the trike it almost throws the trike to one side and it dips down since only one brake is grabbing well.
I bleed the non responsive side thinking maybe it had some old fluid, and it seemed to help a little but they are still not grabing like I feel they should.
The master cylinder has one line going to the back where it splits to each wheel. It doesnt leak or anything.
Im stumped.....thinking about doing a disc conversion as I have no front brake on this thing and wonder if I should just do the disc or can I get responsive breaking out of the drums?
Sorry for the long post, been working on it for a week and Im stumped. |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 10076
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Replace the flex (rubber) hoses on rear brake lines.... They do weird things as they begin to break down...
Another consideration is possible replace the backing plates and shoes and drums with type 3 rear brakes, they are about 25% larger in braking capacity/force than type 1 brakes and its a "bolt on" conversion with all VW parts......
Dale
_________________
Lives his life vicariously through his own self...
1970 "Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...
Last edited by Dale M. on Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 4358
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, like Dale says, definitely replace both the rubber flex hoses. Also, when you bleed the brakes, make sure the shoes are adjusted firm against the shoes. Then after they're bled, back off the adjuster until the drum turns freely but the shoes still rub just a bit.
You say you got a 79 trike. Unless it has electronic fuel injection, I kind of doubt much or any of it is 79. You can check the year of your engine and trans on here.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bugchassisdating.php
BTW, the Chinese VW disc brake conversions are really hell to bleed right. |
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Axitech
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2011
Posts: 161
Location: Bucks County, Pa
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: |
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An old soldiers trick for getting air out of brake lines in the field. Take a piece of rubber vacuum line that is longer than the vehicle. Put it onto the loosened bleeder, have somebody stand over the open master cylinder with a large bottle of brake fluid. Their job is to keep it topped up. Get the lowest ranking guy present to suck on the other end of the line. The bubbles WILL come out.
Sometimes, when bleeding brakes, a stubborn bubble will 'hang' in a high spot in the line. It can be very frustrating to fix. TThis will fix it. So will a cheap vacuum bleed kit from Harbor Fright (yes, i know i left an 'e' out) But, isn't part of the beauty of VW's the fact that you can field-fix them? |
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Ravinsomniac
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Joined: June 20, 2009
Posts: 269
Location: Palm Beach Gardens
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Axitech wrote: | | Get the lowest ranking guy present to suck on the other end of the line. The bubbles WILL come out. |
The only thing is, that brake fluid tastes almost as bad as Dr. Pepper soda ! |
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Axitech
Samba Member
Joined: August 31, 2011
Posts: 161
Location: Bucks County, Pa
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, you just gargle with a little gasoline, then eat the Ham and Mo^&3r F&*(^$rs from a box of c-rations and all the nasty taste is gone. Well, not gone but transformed into something less distasteful yet nutritious (or so they told us). |
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jeromecasi
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Stlouis
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| BL3Manx wrote: | Yes, like Dale says, definitely replace both the rubber flex hoses. Also, when you bleed the brakes, make sure the shoes are adjusted firm against the shoes. Then after they're bled, back off the adjuster until the drum turns freely but the shoes still rub just a bit.
You say you got a 79 trike. Unless it has electronic fuel injection, I kind of doubt much or any of it is 79. You can check the year of your engine and trans on here.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bugchassisdating.php
BTW, the Chinese VW disc brake conversions are really hell to bleed right. |
Appreciate the help, it was built in 79, but has early 70's components. I am thinking maybe I should just do the disc conversion if I am going to end up putting money in it. |
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BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 4358
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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A brand new pair of rear brake hoses will set you back about $20.
The wheel cylinders you bought were probably 17mm rears. Experienced buggy owners replace the stock rear wheel cylinders with front wheel cylinders(22mm) or with Super Beetle front wheel cylinders (23.8mm). The SB wheel cylinders will increase your piston area and braking force by close to double (227 vs. 445 sq mm per wheel). They're about $35 a pair. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 10076
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Technical you have a minor problem, replacing whole system is going to be expensive and kit probably does not come with hose that is causing you trouble.... Try hoses first.....
VW drums on trike are just as effective if not better than disks... If you have to have disks go for it.....But they are not much better than the VW drums... I personally wold go with all stock components (large type 3 rear brakes) ...
If you go disks be sure to get kit that has emergency/parking brakes $$ ...
Dale
_________________
Lives his life vicariously through his own self...
1970 "Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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jeromecasi
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Stlouis
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: | Technical you have a minor problem, replacing whole system is going to be expensive and kit probably does not come with hose that is causing you trouble.... Try hoses first.....
VW drums on trike are just as effective if not better than disks... If you have to have disks go for it.....But they are not much better than the VW drums... I personally wold go with all stock components (large type 3 rear brakes) ...
If you go disks be sure to get kit that has emergency/parking brakes $$ ...
Dale |
This is all great info. Ive studied my whole system, I have hard line back, T's on the axle (still hardline), has a small section of rubber, then to the cylinder.
I did infact put on stock calipers, are you saying I will be able to use less pedal with the other calipers to get the same affect? If so, I will see if the auto store can get them in and do a swap. (Does anything else need replaced if I do this?)
I am thinking I should just rebuild them completely with new pads, springs, the recommended caliper etc. If I was to do this does anyone have a kit they would recommend (or not recommend) to get the larger calipers, good shoes, etc and I will rebuild the system completely.
I appreciate the insight on the drums being good enough for the trike, will save me some $$$$. |
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BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 4358
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jeromecasi wrote: | This is all great info. Ive studied my whole system, I have hard line back, T's on the axle (still hardline), has a small section of rubber, then to the cylinder.
I did infact put on stock calipers, are you saying I will be able to use less pedal with the other calipers to get the same affect? If so, I will see if the auto store can get them in and do a swap. (Does anything else need replaced if I do this?)
I am thinking I should just rebuild them completely with new pads, springs, the recommended caliper etc. If I was to do this does anyone have a kit they would recommend (or not recommend) to get the larger calipers, good shoes, etc and I will rebuild the system completely.
I appreciate the insight on the drums being good enough for the trike, will save me some $$$$. |
Jerome, You're mixing terms and it makes it confusing/difficult to understand what you're asking.
I think you put on stock wheel cylinders not calipers. Wheel cylinders and shoes are used with drums.
Calipers and pads are used with discs.
Yes, if you use larger wheel cylinders(23.8mm front Super Beetle), you will be able to get much more braking force(almost twice) from the same amount of pedal force. There will be a bit more pedal travel but as long as you keep the shoes adjusted, its negligible.
Yes I agree you should rebuild your drum brakes with new shoes, Super Beetle front wheel cylinders, new hardware(springs) and new rubber flex hoses.
The Super Beetle front wheel cylinders will bolt straight in place of your stock rear wheel cylinders.
When you bleed your system, adjust the shoes out firm against the drums then after they're bled back of the adjuster just enough so the drums turn freely. |
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jeromecasi
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Stlouis
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| BL3Manx wrote: | | jeromecasi wrote: | This is all great info. Ive studied my whole system, I have hard line back, T's on the axle (still hardline), has a small section of rubber, then to the cylinder.
I did infact put on stock calipers, are you saying I will be able to use less pedal with the other calipers to get the same affect? If so, I will see if the auto store can get them in and do a swap. (Does anything else need replaced if I do this?)
I am thinking I should just rebuild them completely with new pads, springs, the recommended caliper etc. If I was to do this does anyone have a kit they would recommend (or not recommend) to get the larger calipers, good shoes, etc and I will rebuild the system completely.
I appreciate the insight on the drums being good enough for the trike, will save me some $$$$. |
Jerome, You're mixing terms and it makes it confusing/difficult to understand what you're asking.
I think you put on stock wheel cylinders not calipers. Wheel cylinders and shoes are used with drums.
Calipers and pads are used with discs.
Yes, if you use larger wheel cylinders(23.8mm front Super Beetle), you will be able to get much more braking force(almost twice) from the same amount of pedal force. There will be a bit more pedal travel but as long as you keep the shoes adjusted, its negligible.
Yes I agree you should rebuild your drum brakes with new shoes, Super Beetle front wheel cylinders, new hardware(springs) and new rubber flex hoses.
The Super Beetle front wheel cylinders will bolt straight in place of your stock rear wheel cylinders.
When you bleed your system, adjust the shoes out firm against the drums then after they're bled back of the adjuster just enough so the drums turn freely. |
My apologies on the cofusing terms, I am strictly talking drum brakes here. One last question, when looking for components, this trike was made with a hodge podge of parts. I did an engine lookup and I believe it was a 72. The rear end is a Long axle, Short spline (2 inch measurement of splines). it is not IRS, is there a way to tell what year that is? I only ask because when I go to the parts store to get some new drum shoes, they ask and I dont know what to tell them to make sure I get the right shoes.
I appreciate the help I am going to get this stuff ordered tonight. |
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joescoolcustoms 
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 6347
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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In your first post you stated the left side lost a lot of fluid, and it is the left side that wants to lock up.
If the left side shoes got soaked with fluid, it will cause them to lock up. If they did get soaked with fluid, you may only need to replace the shoes and everything else might still be OK.
But, it is always good to replace the rubber lines if it has set for any amount time.
_________________
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone
Member of Wagenfolks
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/870707.jpg
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=479740 |
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BL3Manx
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 4358
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jeromecasi wrote: |
The rear end is a Long axle, Short spline (2 inch measurement of splines). it is not IRS, is there a way to tell what year that is? I only ask because when I go to the parts store to get some new drum shoes, they ask and I dont know what to tell them to make sure I get the right shoes.
I appreciate the help I am going to get this stuff ordered tonight. |
The long axle, short spline transaxle was 1967 only. It came with 5 bolt drums.
If that's what you have, order rear shoes, hardware and flex hoses for 65-67. Order front Super Beetle wheel cylinders, 71-79. |
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jeromecasi
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Stlouis
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| BL3Manx wrote: | | jeromecasi wrote: |
The rear end is a Long axle, Short spline (2 inch measurement of splines). it is not IRS, is there a way to tell what year that is? I only ask because when I go to the parts store to get some new drum shoes, they ask and I dont know what to tell them to make sure I get the right shoes.
I appreciate the help I am going to get this stuff ordered tonight. |
The long axle, short spline transaxle was 1967 only. It came with 5 bolt drums.
If that's what you have, order rear shoes, hardware and flex hoses for 65-67. Order front Super Beetle wheel cylinders, 71-79. |
Perfect, thats what I have, the wide 5 setup (with chevy convertors). I will order it all tonight, and last note, should I go ahead and replace the drums as well, or are those typically good. (Mind you this hasnt been driven in over 10 years). |
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Q-Dog
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Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2524
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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If the shoes were not worn it's a good chance the drums don't have much use on them. I'm not a fan of replacing stuff for no reason but I would at least have the drums checked and/or turned to make sure thay are OK ... a little searching can find the spec for the drums.
If you are a gambler you can put them back on as is. But, since these are your only brakes you should probably make certain they are 100%.
_________________
Brian
'69 Dune Buggy, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=419624
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=544918 |
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BL3Manx
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Joined: August 29, 2006
Posts: 4358
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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The following is typed from the "VW Service: Without Guesswork" manual for 1960 through 1970 models. All dimensions are in mm (inches). These are all for type 1.
inside diameter, new:
front drums: 230.1 +/- 0.2 (9.058 +/- .008)
rear drums: 230.0 +/- 0.2 (9.055 +/- .008)
inside diameter, wear limit:
front drums: 231.5 (9.113)
rear drums: 231.5 (9.113)
front and rear drum wall thickness wear limit: 4.0 (.16)
I'd inspect the drums for pitting or gouges. If they are within the above limits I'd put them back on.
If you start out with an unworn drum and brakes shoes with a matching radius and then turn the drum to a larger inner diameter, you will actually have less contact between the shoe material and the drum.
If you put it together, adjust them good, then drive it and let them bed in, you'll know whether they're good. Like any other car, drive very careful as they bed in. You should readjust them after they bed in.
If they pulse or give you some other problem, then I'd replace the drums with new. |
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JiI
Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ravinsomniac wrote: | | Axitech wrote: | | Get the lowest ranking guy present to suck on the other end of the line. The bubbles WILL come out. |
The only thing is, that brake fluid tastes almost as bad as Dr. Pepper soda ! |
Dr. Pepper rocks! At least it's not some crappy alcoholic drink like beer, wine or the hard crap!
Jeff |
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jeromecasi
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 8
Location: Stlouis
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:48 am Post subject: |
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First off, thanks everyone for the help. Here is what I have done...
Sandblasted and powdercoated backing plate
Resealed axles
Upgraded to the recommended calipers
All new hardware
New shoes
New rubber lines
Bleed the h*ll out of the system
Using Old rotors
I adjusted the shoes to where the shoes would drag and then backed them off about 4 points on the stars on each shoe.
On this trike, shouldnt I be able to lock up the rear brakes? Its a light vehicle etc. I feel like I really still have to mash on the brakes. I drove it around quite a bit doing light braking in forward and reverse, took the wheels off and readjusted, It just doesnt feel like I can safely stop like I would think I should be able to.
I doesnt appear the master cylinder is leaking or anything, but that is all I have left to replace unless I didnt adjust the shoes correctly. (My master cyclinder uses one hardline to the back then splits).
I appreciate the help once again. |
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Q-Dog
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Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2524
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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When I install new brake shoes on a Beetle I adjust them until they are just beginning to drag. Test drive it like that and after a couple of hard stops they usually loosen up and need to be tightened again. On worn drums the shoes don't have a large contact area and they need time to wear in.
Don't be afraid to really mash down on the pedal.
_________________
Brian
'69 Dune Buggy, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=419624
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=544918 |
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