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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 10695
Location: Kimball, Mi
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 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:18 am Post subject: Re: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120& |
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| gregson1 wrote: |
The horror....
I wonder how much of that shit has wended its way up through the oil galleys? I know time is short and there's never enough money, but ifin it were me, I'd be sending that case out to have the galley plugs pulled for a crankcase high colonic, and then have cam bearings installed.
Breaking down in your garage was a real blessing. |
Some of it did make it's way thru the oil galleys, but a blast of 175 psi air pressure knocked out that stuff (I made sure the compressor was topped up first  ). Most of it was pretty small, and it came right out. A lot of it just stayed put right on top of the strainer.  I guess the big thing was the limited amout of time I actually had on it (total run time), as I was looking at changing the oil (after the 20 minute break in time), and I only added maybe a total of 30 more minutes to that in actual run time (lots of idleing). It's a good thing it didn't see the road last summer when it was up and running. It probably would have even worse inside, with broken parts. But I was going to change the oil, run it for 300 miles, and change it again (that was my plan anyway), but it looks like I'll be doing that all over again. 
But yes, it breaking down in the garage was a blessing. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here; http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240540 -tear down
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120 |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
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Location: Eugene, OR
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vwfye
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Porschedave
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Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 103
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Bob
Yikes, that is a bit of a mess. This reminds me of the first 1500 engine that came with my car. I had hoped to use it straight away as the PO said that the car had been covered and protected. However, when we tried to get it to run it would not turn over and we discovered that it had water in the case. The water had been there so long that the bottom of the case around the strainer had dissolved. Hang in there.
Dave
_________________
1977 911S
1965 Sunroof Notch
1958 Karmann Ghia
http://www.sandersonmotorsports.com/
Notch build here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5600139&highlight=#5600139 |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5212
Location: Las Cruces NM
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
It goes without saying that you'd better triple- check that every oil passage in that case is clear... and I think if it were me that I'd replace the oil cooler.
This is just a not so subtle reminder that even the very best of us can fock up and make mistakes sometimes. |
Well, I think it was more of a case of Russ doing an hour or so at a time on it, and probably just forgot that he put a rag over the drain plate (it might have a week later that he did more work on it). I'm not blaming him at all, it happened, and it's done. Time to move on. But, I'm a firm believer in shiite happens. And IF you've ever been to Russ's place, it can sometimes be a little caotic on a good day, and down right nuts on the others. And with him being sick off and on... I'm actually surprised it got as finished as it did.
I think I've got an early oil cooler here, but I'll check into it.
Actually, Sue got #2 wrong, it was actually beginning to show signs of wear from oil starvation. The rest of the bearings looked good though, and probably could have been re-used, but for the cost of them, I'll just replace them all, and be good to go.
But like Sue started to elaberate on, the current plan is to get the crank polished, order up some bearings, and reassemble it. I've already blasted all the oil passages, and cleaned up the inside of the case, so it's basically ready now. I've still got to scuff pad (with laquer thinner) the case sealing surfaces, and then it'll be done, and ready for assembly. It WILL be going back into the car, so the 65 gets to remain intact. |
guess its not going back in tomorrow. 
mannnnnnnnn that rag is a bummer. I'm kind of surprised it managed to maintain enough oil pressure not to trip the idiot light.
Hey Bob -- just for shits and giggles -- do you think if you'd had a cyl head or oil temp gauge installed you'd have noticed something amiss before the engine seized or not? did the motor give you any symptoms of temp/oil starvation as it was about to lock before hand, or did it just sort of happen all at once?
even when my piston melted it didn't lock up so I'm curious.
_________________
71 Squareback-FI -- 70 Ghia --73 Bay
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI Harnesses!
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 10695
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
guess its not going back in tomorrow.
mannnnnnnnn that rag is a bummer. I'm kind of surprised it managed to maintain enough oil pressure not to trip the idiot light.
Hey Bob -- just for shits and giggles -- do you think if you'd had a cyl head or oil temp gauge installed you'd have noticed something amiss before the engine seized or not? did the motor give you any symptoms of temp/oil starvation as it was about to lock before hand, or did it just sort of happen all at once?
even when my piston melted it didn't lock up so I'm curious. |
Nope, no warning. It just stopped, and then both the oil and gen lights came on. It wasn't even hot (had been running all of 1 to 2 minutes), as I crawled under it about 5 minutes later, and didn't get burned on the exhaust. I doubt any sort of gauges would have alerted me to a problem, as an oil pressure gauge would have still been trying to get settled in place (for any sort of "normal reading"), and the temp gauge wouldn't have even been off the peg. It was still cold enough that a VW factory trained tech could have done a valve adjust on it (it was within temp spec for doing 1).
Not really, but it probably had a hand in the starter taking a dump 3 days before. It just completely stopped like someone turned the switch off.
When I was talking to Tram, he at 1 point thought maybe it hydro-locked, but it wasn't that either.
Anyway, the crank is over at Phil's getting polished, my parts were shipped from AirCooled.net, and I got the case sealing lips cleaned up, along with scrounging up a clean early style oil cooler (even the foam is installed on it). I also pulled the pressure relief valve, and cleaned it up too, just to be safe. If my parts come in this week, it'll get reassembled, and back in the car by the end of the weekend. But we'll see how that goes.
Brian, I wasn't going to Wyoming this year, but some where in the middle of no-where Nebraska was a possibility. Sue and I had been talking about this, a couple of days ago (before the engine siezed), and she was asking IF there were some items I wasn't sure about on it. I told her, well the trans, and the starter, along with the generator could all be suspect, but, the trans should go at least 200K IF we change the gear oil. However, that was why I just rebuilt the generator earlier that day (to check it off the list). Then the 48 year old starter quit, so it got replaced, then the engine decided to stop. Everything else has been rebuilt, or is new on the car, but I'm leaning toward adding an electric fuel pump, just to have a back up.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here; http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240540 -tear down
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120 |
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JSMskater
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Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5212
Location: Las Cruces NM
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
Nope, no warning. It just stopped, and then both the oil and gen lights came on. |
I feel like that's the closest thing to a swift kick in the nuts followed by a bird flip for good measure from the car gods that you can get. Sucks you didn't have any warning at all, that's the worst. it was destined to happen I suppose.
are you worried at all that the crank might not be straight anymore, or were you (or phil) able to measure it, or is that not typically something that happens to the crank when it locks up quickly like this one did?
at least you know the case isn't warped. 
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71 Squareback-FI -- 70 Ghia --73 Bay
TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI Harnesses!
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 10695
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
Nope, no warning. It just stopped, and then both the oil and gen lights came on. |
I feel like that's the closest thing to a swift kick in the nuts followed by a bird flip for good measure from the car gods that you can get. Sucks you didn't have any warning at all, that's the worst. it was destined to happen I suppose.
are you worried at all that the crank might not be straight anymore, or were you (or phil) able to measure it, or is that not typically something that happens to the crank when it locks up quickly like this one did?
at least you know the case isn't warped. |
Phil is going to check it for straightness while he's got it. It is a German forged crank though, so I feel confident that it's ok. I checked it with another main bearing I had here (for an alignbored case), and it was still a std bearing size. I also mic'd it to be sure. It was just a case of no oil getting to that bearing, and it ran dry. I really don't know why it ran dry, other than the oil passage to it being partly blocked. All the other bearings had oil in them, including the rods. It's possible that there was a chunk of hardened oil in that passage too, as found stuff like that inside the case (including a couple of those orange asian beetle carcasses ). It was really strange taking it apart and seeing that sort of thing inside. We get those beetles too, but not like Russ gets them at his place. 
It was definitely a gut check to say the least. But at least it stopped in the shop, where I had tools and time. Yes, I'm thinking it was destined to happen.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here; http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240540 -tear down
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120 |
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SamSmith
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Joined: January 03, 2011
Posts: 323
Location: Tempe, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
Hey Bob -- just for shits and giggles -- do you think if you'd had a cyl head or oil temp gauge installed you'd have noticed something amiss before the engine seized or not? did the motor give you any symptoms of temp/oil starvation as it was about to lock before hand, or did it just sort of happen all at once?
even when my piston melted it didn't lock up so I'm curious. |
I'm sorry but this made me litterally laugh out loud having read the debate with tram.
I guess its not a great idea to laugh amidst engine falure though. Sry |
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Tram 
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 17090
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| SamSmith wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
Hey Bob -- just for shits and giggles -- do you think if you'd had a cyl head or oil temp gauge installed you'd have noticed something amiss before the engine seized or not? did the motor give you any symptoms of temp/oil starvation as it was about to lock before hand, or did it just sort of happen all at once?
even when my piston melted it didn't lock up so I'm curious. |
I'm sorry but this made me litterally laugh out loud having read the debate with tram.
I guess its not a great idea to laugh amidst engine falure though. Sry |
It made me want to kill him, then I remembered he's building me a FI harness. It better not come with a temp gauge.
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RIPRW
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vlad01
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Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 2153
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
It goes without saying that you'd better triple- check that every oil passage in that case is clear... and I think if it were me that I'd replace the oil cooler.
This is just a not so subtle reminder that even the very best of us can fock up and make mistakes sometimes. |
Well, I think it was more of a case of Russ doing an hour or so at a time on it, and probably just forgot that he put a rag over the drain plate (it might have a week later that he did more work on it). I'm not blaming him at all, it happened, and it's done. Time to move on. But, I'm a firm believer in shiite happens. And IF you've ever been to Russ's place, it can sometimes be a little caotic on a good day, and down right nuts on the others. And with him being sick off and on... I'm actually surprised it got as finished as it did.
I think I've got an early oil cooler here, but I'll check into it.
Actually, Sue got #2 wrong, it was actually beginning to show signs of wear from oil starvation. The rest of the bearings looked good though, and probably could have been re-used, but for the cost of them, I'll just replace them all, and be good to go.
But like Sue started to elaberate on, the current plan is to get the crank polished, order up some bearings, and reassemble it. I've already blasted all the oil passages, and cleaned up the inside of the case, so it's basically ready now. I've still got to scuff pad (with laquer thinner) the case sealing surfaces, and then it'll be done, and ready for assembly. It WILL be going back into the car, so the 65 gets to remain intact. |
guess its not going back in tomorrow.
mannnnnnnnn that rag is a bummer. I'm kind of surprised it managed to maintain enough oil pressure not to trip the idiot light.
Hey Bob -- just for shits and giggles -- do you think if you'd had a cyl head or oil temp gauge installed you'd have noticed something amiss before the engine seized or not? did the motor give you any symptoms of temp/oil starvation as it was about to lock before hand, or did it just sort of happen all at once?
even when my piston melted it didn't lock up so I'm curious. |
they don't all give warning or stop running in a catastrofic failure.
like this one.
still ran ok like this and the oil light didn't come on even though there was no oil in the sump only rubble
 |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 10695
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| vlad01 wrote: |
| JSMskater wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
But like Sue started to elaberate on, the current plan is to get the crank polished, order up some bearings, and reassemble it. I've already blasted all the oil passages, and cleaned up the inside of the case, so it's basically ready now. I've still got to scuff pad (with laquer thinner) the case sealing surfaces, and then it'll be done, and ready for assembly. It WILL be going back into the car, so the 65 gets to remain intact. |
guess its not going back in tomorrow.
mannnnnnnnn that rag is a bummer. I'm kind of surprised it managed to maintain enough oil pressure not to trip the idiot light.
Hey Bob -- just for shits and giggles -- do you think if you'd had a cyl head or oil temp gauge installed you'd have noticed something amiss before the engine seized or not? did the motor give you any symptoms of temp/oil starvation as it was about to lock before hand, or did it just sort of happen all at once?
even when my piston melted it didn't lock up so I'm curious. |
they don't all give warning or stop running in a catastrofic failure.
like this one.
still ran ok like this and the oil light didn't come on even though there was no oil in the sump only rubble
|
I've also had the end of a valve come off (#4), and go right thru the piston before. It was full of oil (didn't leak a drop), but it shut off the engine when the cam snapped in 2. I rebuilt that engine (didn't hurt the case 1 bit), and drove it for another 5 years before I sold it too. Sometimes they just don't give you any warning, other times they do, like when I spun a rod bearing (#3) on my way to a VW show (I could feel it tightening up, but I was about 2 miles from the nearest exit).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here; http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240540 -tear down
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120 |
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Suesanctuary
Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 779
Location: Wishing we were still chest deep in Vw Parts at the Wolfe Estate.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Evening All,
Bob spent the afternoon with "Wolfie," working on his "little things to do list."
First let me catch you up...
Last Saturday, while I was off picking up the new starter, Bob installed an inner seal in the rear trunk, that he had gotten a while back from OFCDoug. Thank You Doug! "Wolfie's" was pretty much junk. Not sure if it has a proper name. But it sits at the point where the louver box comes down for the rear intake. It basically seals/ separates the trunk from the air intake. (That was before installing the starter, and engine removal/ autopsy ordeal.)
Skipping ahead to yesterday, between doing some customer work, he managed to get the engine cover sanded, painted and cleared. ( got the little handles and latches reattached today.)
This photo is a 2-fer, showing the newly painted engine cover and that inner seal, I just mentioned:
Being as the engine was out, Bob also took the opportunity to install the new swing axle boots (genuine VW -Made in Mexico.) The wrappings had VW, Audi, and Seat logos on them.
Bob said that even though the outside of the OE boot and the OE German replacement boot looked pretty rough, the insides looked real good and were still doing their job. It was one of those "Do you keep it, or replace it" moments. He didn't know how good they were till he took 'em apart though...
New boots:
_________________
Sue
70 Fastback-AT w/ pop-outs
Did you know:
New York was the first state to require license plates, back in 1901. In those days, you had to make your own. Sears even sold Kits! Massachusetts was the first state to issue them in 1903.
Source: Automobile Magazine, Nov. 2006
Last edited by Suesanctuary on Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Suesanctuary
Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 779
Location: Wishing we were still chest deep in Vw Parts at the Wolfe Estate.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Today Bob also cleaned up the Better of the two sets of door sills we have here.
He says "Yes, Yes, he knows they are Not the proper ones." 
Should be the smooth ones, not the ribbed ones. But the smooth ones have rust holes through them. (Do we Really wanna Re-introduce Rust back into the car?! I think not!) Bob would need to weld 'em up, grind 'em down and send them out to be re-anodized. Maybe later... in the meantime...
Clean up pics, one down, one to go...
Installed:
Looks Sharp!
_________________
Sue
70 Fastback-AT w/ pop-outs
Did you know:
New York was the first state to require license plates, back in 1901. In those days, you had to make your own. Sears even sold Kits! Massachusetts was the first state to issue them in 1903.
Source: Automobile Magazine, Nov. 2006 |
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Suesanctuary
Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2007
Posts: 779
Location: Wishing we were still chest deep in Vw Parts at the Wolfe Estate.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Bob also got the lower door seals glued on today. He hasn't tried playing around with the wind lace part yet. As he is still on a quest to find suitable rubber seals that would attach to the wind lace. He still has to fab up the wind lace mounting strips that holds the entire wind lace-seal assembly in place.
He has some partial remains, but not enough there to be usable.
He got the gear lube changed in the transaxle.
I think that gets you all pretty well up to date.
_________________
Sue
70 Fastback-AT w/ pop-outs
Did you know:
New York was the first state to require license plates, back in 1901. In those days, you had to make your own. Sears even sold Kits! Massachusetts was the first state to issue them in 1903.
Source: Automobile Magazine, Nov. 2006 |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 17090
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Suesanctuary wrote: |
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That engine looks BITCHIN' in clear coat!
_________________
Give A Pal a Hand!
www.happytrailsfarm.org
May 4, 1970... Never Forget.
RIPRW
"Hell is- other people."- Jean- Paul Sartre |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 17090
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Suesanctuary wrote: |
Bob also got the lower door seals glued on today. He hasn't tried playing around with the wind lace part yet. As he is still on a quest to find suitable rubber seals that would attach to the wind lace. He still has to fab up the wind lace mounting strips that holds the entire wind lace-seal assembly in place.
He has some partial remains, but not enough there to be usable.
He got the gear lube changed in the transaxle.
I think that gets you all pretty well up to date. |
Believe it or not, Jacques Whitnay still has a whole section of bulk weatherstripping of all different profiles and sizes:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/inner-and-outer-belt-weatherstripping-universal/p2008570.jcwx
_________________
Give A Pal a Hand!
www.happytrailsfarm.org
May 4, 1970... Never Forget.
RIPRW
"Hell is- other people."- Jean- Paul Sartre |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 10695
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Suesanctuary wrote: |
Bob also got the lower door seals glued on today. He hasn't tried playing around with the wind lace part yet. As he is still on a quest to find suitable rubber seals that would attach to the wind lace. He still has to fab up the wind lace mounting strips that holds the entire wind lace-seal assembly in place.
He has some partial remains, but not enough there to be usable.
He got the gear lube changed in the transaxle.
I think that gets you all pretty well up to date. |
Believe it or not, Jacques Whitnay still has a whole section of bulk weatherstripping of all different profiles and sizes:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/inner-and-outer-belt-weatherstripping-universal/p2008570.jcwx |
Thanks for the link Tram, unfortunately, the "seal" isn't shown on that page. I guess I need to take a couple of pics of the 1 good 1 that I have, then you might have a better idea of what I'm looking for. It's really an odd ball shaped "seal", that doesn't really seal. It's more of an edge cap, and a door bumper in 1. It's not really a seal, as there's an outer seal for that job, but it looks like a seal. Know what I mean?
And yes that clear coated engine looks great.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here; http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240540 -tear down
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120 |
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notchboy
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 11441
Location: Seattle WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Ive know that those door seals on T34s are odd, hard to find as well. I feel your pain Bob. Ive dreaded having to actualy dive into it myself when I get to that point.
But I have been looking at the rubber on my 93 subby Legacy. The door rubber on it is simular to the T34 as it uses the glass as well to seal against the body. It has that same top rubber cap peice where the door stops and the glass begins. I wounder how well it could be adapted to fit.
_________________
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 T34 S Convertible
1974 Westfalia Hardtop Campmobile
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top
the1500club.com 
TOOB Member #5 |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5212
Location: Las Cruces NM
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| notchboy wrote: |
Ive know that those door seals on T34s are odd, hard to find as well. I feel your pain Bob. Ive dreaded having to actualy dive into it myself when I get to that point.
But I have been looking at the rubber on my 93 subby Legacy. The door rubber on it is simular to the T34 as it uses the glass as well to seal against the body. It has that same top rubber cap peice where the door stops and the glass begins. I wounder how well it could be adapted to fit. |
late model ghia rubbers are like this too, but I think they mount to the body differently than on a T3 but if you have some laying around Bob, maybe you can see if it would work too if you haven't already.
nice progress shots
on the sides of the seat backrests, those pieces of metal trim -- did all t34's have that? I don't recall ever noticing them before.
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TOOB Member #3
I make D-jet FI Harnesses!
www.JSMENG.webs.com |
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at himself now! 
Wolfie just took its bite out of you, so you should be golden for everything after this!
