Joined: August 13, 2006 Posts: 1744 Location: Bloomington, IN
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:12 pm Post subject:
If you care about your vanagon, are willing to put the time in to make sure everything is working, and are ok with operating under its limitations when compared to a modern vehicle, it doesn't matter which type engine you get, you will be happy and good to go. If want modern speed and not have to worry or pay attention to anything, then get a new vehicle that is still under warranty with the 400+ car payment to go with it. _________________ 1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them.
Joined: March 05, 2012 Posts: 24 Location: Santa Cruz
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject:
love the hatred on here... just feeling the love pouring out from all the AC haters....
sojourner hit the nail on the proverbial head in saying it comes down to the previous owner. I just bought an 82 tin top, and got handed a phone books worth of receipts, and extra bits and pieces. The guy even emailed me to see how i was getting on with it. Drove it all the way to Santa Cruz from Oceanside without it even getting hot, doing 60-70 on all the FWY sections, slowing down for hills of course. It has a cylinder head temp gauge, and I just keep an eye on if I'm working it really hard. But, never gets over 220 even then.
So far been camping all over Big Sur, up and down steep, slippery grades, muddy roads, hauling surfboards, camping gear, 2 people and a big heavy dog. Keeps up with traffic just fine, and on the windy roads, I usually pass people. Couldn't be happier.
On the other hand, my GF bought an 86 WBX and so far we've had to fix wheel bearings on the side of the road, 2 tows for mysterious not starting issues, overheating, and this weekend it was puking the coolant out after a relatively short trip up a mellow paved one lane road... Not to mention all the other "stuff" she's had to fix on the van.
The difference is clearly maintenance vs neglect or worse. At the moment, I'd feel way more comfortable going out in the bush with my van than hers..
Joined: March 05, 2012 Posts: 24 Location: Santa Cruz
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject:
reluctantartist wrote:
If you care about your vanagon, are willing to put the time in to make sure everything is working, and are ok with operating under its limitations when compared to a modern vehicle, it doesn't matter which type engine you get, you will be happy and good to go. If want modern speed and not have to worry or pay attention to anything, then get a new vehicle that is still under warranty with the 400+ car payment to go with it.
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 2080 Location: Cascadia
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:31 pm Post subject:
Not really related to the engine, but for me the lack of available options like A/C*, CC*, PW, PDL, PMs, PS, etc. make the early chassis less appealing. But as was mentioned earlier, they're the best dollar value opportunity to buy a camper if that's your thing.
*My old AC van had both those aftermarket features added by the dealer. Neither worked. _________________ --Casey
'89 Bluestar
"Endeavor to persevere"
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 915 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject:
noganav wrote:
Notice a pattern anyone? ...
Folks who've owned them for a while, like them just fine. If they're properly maintained they will do 70mph all day and a little more than 20mpg.
I'll contest I had mine 5 years. Also, I can't find a road that lets me do 70 all day without encountering a hill Not that it matters, heck, I don't even do 70 all day in my car!
Look, it's easy people - drive one. If you are happy with the performance, then go for it! It is simpler that the WBX - period. Get a head temp gage, treat it right and it will be fine.
Personally, I like the VW in-line 4 conversions I have seen. Simpler and cheaper than than WBX or Type IV. That engine, in a early car as Dan has done, can provide a bargain camper if you do the wrenching - but that's another subject which can cause even more distress here
Happy trails! _________________ John
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/limbobus/
86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
if you find the water-cooled motors to be hideously overpowered, then the air-cooled ones are for you!
I am hardly an A-C hater, having owned a Bus and two 6 cylinder air-cooled motors that came complete with a nice sports car wrapped around it. I still have one, upgraded to a bigger air-cooled motor.
But as one of the top mechanics on air-cooled boxer motors once said, "air doesn't freeze but it doesn't cool very well either."
The air-cooled motors also make more pollution than water-cooled ones, as well as more noise and less power. That is why the main purveyors of air-cooled motors moved to water-cooled. _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.
Last edited by randywebb on Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 3498 Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:53 pm Post subject:
noganav wrote:
Notice a pattern anyone?
Lots of haters who have driven one once, or have been told they're slow or blah blah blah. Folks who've owned them for a while, like them just fine. If they're properly maintained they will do 70mph all day and a little more than 20mpg. Slow on the hills, but my Syncro is not really much better. I'll definitely have another Aircooled van when I live somewhere with some space.
Don't count them out without actually driving one and listening to people *who can document that they actually have some experience with them*. Aircooled vans are the best value for money right now. They camp just like the watercooled ones, and the come with a super awesome ski lodge interior.
My comments were not those of a 'hater". They were a sober attempt at objectivity. My first vehicle was a '74 bus which I drove back and forth across the county. My first vanagon was an air-cooled. I have mucho experience owning, driving and fixing both the air-cooled AND water-cooled vanagons and my comments reflect that.
But as one of the top mechanics on air-cooled boxer motors once said, "air doesn't freeze but it doesn't cool very well either."
The air-cooled motors also make more pollution than water-cooled ones
Air cooling cools just fine, that is how all water cooled automobile engines are ultimately cooled. The problem is in regulating amount of cooling, which is where water cooled engine shine and why air cooled engine are hard reduce pollution on.
But as one of the top mechanics on air-cooled boxer motors once said, "air doesn't freeze but it doesn't cool very well either."
The air-cooled motors also make more pollution than water-cooled ones
Air cooling cools just fine ... The problem is in regulating amount of cooling, which is where water cooled engine shine and why air cooled engine are hard reduce pollution on.
not so - as engine size, combustion chamber size and hp increase, it is increasingly difficult to use air for cooling
another issue for high performance motors is that you cannot easily use a 4 valve design with a centrally located spark plug
Porsche first went to water cooled heads on some race cars, then finally to water-cooling of the entire engine _________________ 1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans.
Air cooling certainly has it limitations, as does water cooling. Never seen a water cooled push lawnmower to date, or a water cooled gas generator that I could pickup and load into the back of a pickup. Guess that proves watercooling doesn't work.
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 2696 Location: Arizona
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:57 pm Post subject:
Will the Air-Water War ever end? Both are good at what they were built to do; both have their problems and limitations.
Go drive an air-cooled and a water-cooled and decide for yourself which you prefer.
Wildthings wrote:
Guess that proves watercooling doesn't work.
God forbid Porsche ever puts a water-cooled engine in their non-racing sports cars... oh, wait, they did. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2000 Jetta VR6
Joined: October 11, 2004 Posts: 2597 Location: Montreal
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:32 am Post subject:
Pros:
-Easiest of all to work on, engine can be remove in less then 45 min.
http://www.benplace.com/air_cool_vanagon.htm
-Best value for the money right now.
-Power is fine if you don't live in the mountain or are not in a hurry
-Will last very long if WELL maintain and nicely rebuilt.
-BS, the 1.9L doesn't have much more power.
Cons:
-Engine cooling system need to be very clean (duck)
-Engine cooling is not efficient over 65mph
-WW2 technology.
-Dropping valve seat (dirty engine - stuff/leaf/dirt on cylinders that prevent adequate cooling)
http://www.benplace.com/valve_seat/seat6.jpg
-Don't use GEX engine or any other crappy rebuilder
http://www.benplace.com/air_cool1.htm
-You NEED a head temp gauge (stress gauge)
Conclusion (for ME): If I would fine a nice one, drive mostly 500km around the house, paid under a few K$ = Worth the price.
Don't even think of buying one if your ever thinking about an engine conversion (any).
For ME, I still think that the best deal out there would be a nice 84-85.
ME, I have a shop and only see (before) some horror stories.
My good friend Jonathan from SC as been with me in Mexico with his nice AC (rebuilt by the defunct B. Bob) van and it was amazing. He still drive it today, BUT! he take very good care of it.
In the following picture and vid you see ALL type of engine, 1,9L diesel, AC 2.0L, 2,1L, 1.9L, 2,5 Subi and SVX......... EVERYONE had a blast!Everyone made it to 9000 feets.
Joined: August 15, 2005 Posts: 635 Location: North Royalton, Ohio
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:58 am Post subject:
noganav wrote:
Notice a pattern anyone?
Lots of haters who have driven one once, or have been told they're slow or blah blah blah. Folks who've owned them for a while, like them just fine. If they're properly maintained they will do 70mph all day and a little more than 20mpg.
I wish my 82 Westy would do 70 mph all day and give me 20mpg... The best I ever got was 17 mpg and that was due to drafting behind a semi on the interstate for extended periods......
Also, if I did 70 mph for extended periods of time by CHT would probably be at about 450 degrees.
I really envy any AC Vanagon owner who can get 20mpg and cruise all day at 70. I am not being a smart ass here, I would like to know how to accomplish it.
I have had my 82 for 6 years now and use it generally for a few camping trips a year. I would say that it is reliable but if someone offered me a watercooled in trade I think I would take him up on it. I am just tired of monitoring head temps and the lack of power..... not everyone feels this way though....
So, if anyone wants to trade me their WBX for my AC let me know. MY AC is in very good clean condition and works perfectly.
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 5350 Location: Syracuse, NY
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:40 am Post subject:
it all depends on what you want or can expect out of them..
mine was formerly aircooled, and was great on 2ndary roads, didn't feel slow at all.. thought it was awesome. and local interstate is flat.. no troubles around town etc..
took it from NY to PA and fell out of the draft behind tractortrailers uphill in the tuck lane.. O_O
I mean he'd pull away from me in the truck lane uphill.. X_X..
then I had a burned valve experiance from the aircooling.. owner error (aren't they all really anyways) I'd disconneced the heater boxes in the summer heat and fried the AC engine..
put in a jetta inline 4cyl, Radiator & wiring were butt simple. cooling tubes a little work, but the gas tank leaked anyways.. so reseal that at same time.. didn't install in dash heater till I needed it for a december trip NY to FL.. *mind I'd never would have even considered that with the AC engine.. the distance or the timing..
but the heater install was only slightly more work than any other H2o owner HAS to do at some point to R&R the dash fan.. even Daizee at Idunno 65+ is in the midst of it.. easy no, but doable none the less.
here's a pic of my 2nd NY to FL trip with my 1980 formerly AC van currently 1.8L digifant I4 (95hp) (see the rear engine vents) towing Mom's 86 after it blew the headgasket (sadly again mechanic error)
avg day temps were 95~99* pulled that in 3rd gear about 1,000miles mostly except ~35mi of interstate in 4th but above 65mph was dicey.
engine temps were right where T-stat needed them, though I did run the indash heater.. much to my physical discomfort.. but needed as much assurances as posible in that situation..
Joined: August 15, 2005 Posts: 635 Location: North Royalton, Ohio
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:24 am Post subject:
wolfej1 wrote:
noganav wrote:
Notice a pattern anyone?
Lots of haters who have driven one once, or have been told they're slow or blah blah blah. Folks who've owned them for a while, like them just fine. If they're properly maintained they will do 70mph all day and a little more than 20mpg.
I wish my 82 Westy would do 70 mph all day and give me 20mpg... The best I ever got was 17 mpg and that was due to drafting behind a semi on the interstate for extended periods......
Also, if I did 70 mph for extended periods of time by CHT would probably be at about 450 degrees.
I really envy any AC Vanagon owner who can get 20mpg and cruise all day at 70. I am not being a smart ass here, I would like to know how to accomplish it.
I have had my 82 for 6 years now and use it generally for a few camping trips a year. I would say that it is reliable but if someone offered me a watercooled in trade I think I would take him up on it. I am just tired of monitoring head temps and the lack of power..... not everyone feels this way though....
So, if anyone wants to trade me their WBX for my AC let me know. MY AC is in very good clean condition and works perfectly.
They are all good though!
Still waiting to hear from the folks who cruise all day at 70mph and get 20mpg...
I drive like a wuss and get 15-16..... _________________ 1982 Westy
2004 KDX200
2008 Kawasaki KLR 650
1979 Yamaha DT 175
1995 Toyota 4Runner
Joined: August 13, 2006 Posts: 1744 Location: Bloomington, IN
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Still waiting to hear from the folks who cruise all day at 70mph and get 20mpg...
I drive like a wuss and get 15-16.....
Hey wolfe, maybe someday you can stop at my neck of the woods and we can check out your ride you might do better if you had real gas. I no longer get the 20+ mpg unless I use pure gas. Since it is almost a dollar more than the ethanol and a 20mile round trip to get, I don't use it so my current mileage is 15-16 in town and 19-20 on the highway. 18-19 mpg at 70 mph and 19-20 mpg at 60. And yes sometimes we are driving 70 and have no problems, you have to make sure everything is working correctly (no vacuum leaks) and the engine compartment is sealed well. VW said the maximum cruising speed on the aircooled is 75 mph. Most people get lax on the maintenance, especially vacuum leaks and the engine compartment seals. I wish they would quite using corn for fuel. _________________ 1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them.
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I had mine 5 years. Also, I can't find a road that lets me do 70 all day without encountering a hill 
Not that it matters, heck, I don't even do 70 all day in my car!
Both are good at what they were built to do; both have their problems and limitations.
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: 
The best I ever got was 17 mpg and that was due to drafting behind a semi on the interstate for extended periods......
