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Thrifty Chicken
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Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Wisconsin
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: Steers all over the road |
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| My 1970 drives like it's on marbles. It is really bad in wind, behind another vehicle or in front of another vehicle at highway speeds. I've checked wheel bearings, rod ends, shocks, installed new ball joints, new steering box and aligned the front end. I don't see any play in the beam bearings. Will a rear end alignment or 29" tires cause this or is there a trick I need to know about? I wish there was a really stiff steering stabilizer available. The stock one is new, but the steering is still way too easy and it doesn't feel like I'm connected if that makes any sense. |
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smokey503
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Joined: October 01, 2010
Posts: 598
Location: Felony Flats, Portland Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I am no expert at all with tire alignment at all, but it seems the front wheels would cause what symptoms you are explaining.
How do the front wheels look facing them? Any excessive To in or Toe out?
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60ragtop 
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Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 2489
Location: Big Wonderful Wy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| What size tires and what pressures you running? |
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andk5591
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Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 8987
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Toe can cause what you are experiencing - double check the front toe - should be in about 1/8" in the front. I have never had to mess with rear alignment, other than setting it, so I don't know what effect it will have. BUT 28" tires bring your car up about 1 1/2" taller than stock. And that sure as hell doesnt help. My 65 is at stock height and is a lot worse in wind and such than our 61, which is dropped about 2 1/2" in the front.....
You didnt say anything about if you are running sway bars either.
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68IHscout
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Joined: March 10, 2010
Posts: 1955
Location: santa ana ca
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| 60ragtop wrote: |
| What size tires and what pressures you running? |
when i didnt know any better i nflated my tires to 32psi that would make my car wonder , then i learned that its 18f n 28 r. made a world of diference .. |
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donmurray
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Joined: December 30, 2008
Posts: 842
Location: Frisco Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| As mentioned, tall tires would make a car more sensitive, especially in wind. The higher the center of gravity, the easier it can be leaned/tilted/flipped. Very easy steering also sounds like there's little or no caster action in front. If the front is lower than the back, caster effect is reduced. Caster can have a big effect on straight line stability. If everything checks out, and you want to keep the extra height, then you may want to consider bigger front sway bar, and adding a rear sway bar. They will resist any leaning force. Another option is to put caster shims behind the lower torsion tube. That will increase caster & straight line stability, and make the steering harder. |
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LRS30
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Joined: October 11, 2011
Posts: 104
Location: Beautiful Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mine was lowered in the front A BUNCH!. I eneded up putting in a bumpsteer eliminater kit from TOP LINE I think the pieces where less than 20bucks. It dod the trick.. It takes the tie rod ends and flips them to take care of the bumpsteer when lowered. |
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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19super73
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Joined: October 18, 2007
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Location: Cité Soleil
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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I thought this was about cows.
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Only a hack would have to take the rear apron off to remove a stock engine. |
| JerryMCarter1 wrote: |
If it is something just stuck eventually it will wear down and go away.
Run it for awhile and see if it gets quieter |
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jwold
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Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 1370
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe he's driving in Oklahoma. |
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Thrifty Chicken
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Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| It does have a tiny sway bar in the front. Tire pressure does change the condition. I had 25 lbs in the front and bumped it up to 30 and it wandered worse. I'm afraid to drop the tire pressures down too much as I used to run 20 all the way around and the car would hop and shimmy at 55 mph. I'll have to find the absolute lowest pressure I can get away with just to use the car... it darts that bad right now. I don't have a VW dealer nearby, would a good alignment/tire shop have the specs to set up this thing the right way? |
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RocketA
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Location: NJ-NY-CT
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JerryMCarter1
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Joined: January 07, 2007
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Location: N.W. Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't read much of the above posts because I bought a new 1970 off the showroom floor and it did the same thing
I always thought it was taking in air underneath and maybe lowering it would help
Back in the day nylon tires and the like
Even my 73 super - which is stock -gets a little weird above 70
The car just was not made to go fast --
By a Ford if you want to rock on at high speeds
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Thrifty Chicken
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Location: Wisconsin
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RocketA
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Location: NJ-NY-CT
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:26 am Post subject: |
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The search function can be a bit quirky.....sometimes less specific search terms are better than more specific ones and sometimes it's vice versa. But there's nothin' that hasn't been covered on this forum so if you don't find anything on the first try, a second search is usually the best way.
Good luck with your steering problem!
I had one once and it turned out the spindle nut holding my right front wheel bearing in place was loose as a bitch. Tightened it to spec and all was good. It was like a different car all of a sudden. |
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candymustang66
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Joined: April 24, 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Steers all over the road |
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| Thrifty Chicken wrote: |
My 1970 IRS (DJ)
STOCK or not STOCK ?
drives like it's on marbles. at what speed?, 35mph or 80mph (down hill ?)
It is really bad in wind, behind another vehicle or in front of another vehicle at highway speeds. 55, 65, 70 or 80, all highways have diffr rules.
I've checked wheel bearings, rod ends, shocks, installed new ball joints, new steering box and aligned the front end. I don't see any play in the beam bearings.
Will a rear end alignment or 29" tires cause this (you saying its 29" tires now?)
or is there a trick I need to know about? sure, get the car aligned at ANY alignment shop, the get the paper with the numbers and post them.
the numbers will not lie.
I wish there was a really stiff steering stabilizer available.
It only stops car from leaning so much, and causes it to squat .
The stock one is new, but the steering is still way too easy and it doesn't feel like I'm connected if that makes any sense. |
here are some things that cause weave.
wander and weave is caused by loose steering box gears.
due to driver constantly correcting and over correcting (natural effect)
front end caster off ( car not level?)
when you jack up the rear (only) of any car you remove the front caster.
so can tow-in or out effect steering feel and reactions, set the tow in to spec.
KPI or new name is , steering axis inclination
this is fixed in the ball joints and spindle assembly. (but is important...)
it causes the the spindle to move up to the center point , wheels straight.
the weight of car forces the wheel spindles to move to the top of the arc
of the Inclination effect. Looks like and sideways C , in effect.
if the rear axle is twisted (or frame), then car wants to CRAB (walks(rolls) like a crab)
you will fight this effect too, every moment , if present.
i'd take it to a shop and get the alignment checked and recorded.
if flush with cash, have them correct it. (they may decline due to year)
if not, post the report and get help for DIY fixes.
there are vw videos showing the whole alignment procedures , on line. too.
including all home made tools to do this...
if you tilted the car ,with huge tires. on the back
you can correct that (like the old 70s rake (ass jacked up high)
you can buy shims for the front. that correct caster.
at high speed (over 45), any short comings in the parts , will be amplified.
alignment wrong. (due to sparing sag, collision, or modifications to car)
bad tires
inflation pressures.
wrong size tires.
loose ball joints or arms.
loose wheel bearings.
bent frame.
loose worm and sector steering box. (they have some ,tiny bit , new)
does dragging the brakes ,help during the wobble.?a light drag.
,i hope i have helped you in some small way. |
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dan macmillan
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Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3072
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:36 am Post subject: |
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To go with what candy said. What rims do you have on the front? Any wheel adapters? What is the total width/offset/backspacing on your front wheels? If the center of the tire is being set outward from stock in relation to KPI/SAI, scrub radius will be affected. Too much and steering gets squirrely. An old school fix {if everything else is within specs} is to increase toe in on the front.
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candymustang66
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Joined: April 24, 2012
Posts: 2353
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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also
case in in point.
im doing new shocks x4 and disc brakes up front (Ghia's)
shocks today.
if find the front left shock (only in the sweet spot, dead) (off car in hands)
this will cause out of control wheel at that spot.
have someone follow you and see of 1 of the 4 wheels goes nuts at your
quoted highway speed. (bouncing like crazy)
back under my car...
then i find the bottom shock sleeves stuck on to bottom of spindle pin.
so I reef on it with giant vise grips. ,it don't budge (i suspected it wouldn't)
but as i did so , oh my gosh , the lower ball joint is junk. it moves 1/4"
but all is not a problem because i have no intentions on running antique ball joints with my cherry Ghia spindles.... No way , Jose'
my point is to get a long lever. and pry all the suspension parts. (f/r)
use up to about 40lbs of force (about) see what moves and what don't.
my car is on 4 jack stands so i could see balls move funny with out veh. weight hiding this flaw.....
good luck with your car, and tell is the MPH this happens?. exactly. |
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Thrifty Chicken
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Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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This car is a baja, but after I removed the coil overs in the back and installed standard shocks, it does not sit high in the back, it sags if anything. Both front and rear wheels are 29" diameter. Shocks, ball joints, steering shock and gear box are new. It is uncontrollable at 40 mph and above and after I increased the air pressure in the tires, it is worse. I'm really hoping caster shims will help because that and a complete alignment are all that is left. Wheels are centerline with standard offset in the front. The image shows the back higher than it sits now. This thread and the "wandering" thread have given me a lot of ideas. Thanks!
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candymustang66
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Joined: April 24, 2012
Posts: 2353
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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over sized tires can be hard to steer. ( not all tires, but vast brands types)
when you put huge tires on the front, and then pump in huge air pressure.
The tire tread Crowns.
this makes the tire , just like a bicycle tire (virtual) (due to that crowning)
so of alignment is not perfect it will be hard to steer.
the VW is light in the front end, i can pick the car off the ground (1 front wheel)
try it. you can too.
gap finder lip. above tire and lift.
some people in this pickle use custom tow-in , tow-out settings.
The best tire is one that squishes and makes a nice tire patch on the ground
up front. the pressure in the tire must match the weight up front
or the tire will have a bad patch.
the baja dont change anything, it's only tin cut off body, if anything it makes
car lighter and harder to tune (chassis tuning)
if you have a radical mod car, you never said so.... |
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