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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 4934
Location: Des moines Iowa
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:41 am Post subject: Re: All in good fun.... |
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| glmel wrote: | Seriously. If anyone here can actually be serious.
Cooling heads to make power and add life to an engine may not work in the VW world, but physical and mechanical worlds state otherwise. Cooling them, not the oil or crank case and not freezing them so the engine runs like dog-shit has GOT to add power and add life.
( more wiki articles, I love em, try to read them and learn something!)
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/conductive-heat-transfer-d_428.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html
Few of you will be able to understand this but the formulas are there, for all they are worth.
Opinion is far and away from fact. One "professional engine builder" as was stated to me sent a PM yesterday. "push rods move liner so this will never work!"
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/ctrp_0611_rocker_arm_valvetrain_geometry/photo_11.html
Do tell!
Another VW guru … it's gonna be 2 stroke oil injected engine? "
3/4" inch hose the length required can NEVER be backed up to flood stage when supplied via 3/8" hose under 10 PSI @ 1.5 GPM.( x 2 hoses, one for each side )
http://www.dultmeier.com/pdfs/tech-library/02Water8.pdf
Into a spring loaded pushrod with ID of .875 ID a piece of machined brass can be press fit. These are pre drilled beforehand to accommodate the pushrod, pre-machined to accept the stem seals. What ever valve stem seal size required is machined onto the end of 8 plugs. Valve stem seal sizes vary. Smaller, like my brain, in better.
http://compare.ebay.com/like/380424201783?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar
Oh yea, solid push rods.
I came to realize the problem with this thread, some people on it are missing a lug nut, or two. Problems are understood. One, do not make it too cool or it will not run right. Also understood, there is no problem with too much heat in these heads or engines. Search that on Google... lmao
For the few of you that sneak off and try this, and some will, ... you are welcome and you will see results. For the rest of you, be sure that heat sink you install is in just the right spot! And a 2 bit heat gauge that is use that is for sale and installed under number 3 plug is a joke and JUNK. This is 2012! If you shoot all around your engine, with a professional tool you like a Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer you will very soon .... COME TO KNOW ....what is hot and what is not. Then, when and if you do this and pour any liquid you like over any area you just shot ... you will understand the power of heat transfer and the first law of thermodynamics.
I think I will delete myself. The internet has better advise |
One problem in this spiel......a non-contact infra-red thermometer has no place in doing what you just noted. It is NOT a professional tool at all.
Non contact infra-red or laser thermometer (as compared to a a non-contact infrared pyrometer which IS a professional tool....but still the wrong tool).....are both highly inaccurate when used over any distance close to adjacent hot surfaces or around other large sources of RADIANT heat ....which interfere with the laser path in much the same way heat alter the laser beam to create the reading.
I use instruments for measuring heat in my lab every day that are far, far, far, far more advanced and sophisticated that what you are describing.
In fact those units are so far off we use them only for cursory checks....because you cannot get any two of them to agree with each other. We are not talking about 5-10 degrees.
Trying to measure something like head temp in one area with heat from something like and exhaust passing through the beam area..can give errors in excess of 50F. Ray |
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Derek Cobb
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Joined: March 11, 2004
Posts: 1911
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: |
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C'mon guys! This guy reads Wikipedia and works on Harleys! He knows what he's talking about. In three to five months he's going to prove you all wrong. I have patience, I can wait a few weeks to see this original and never-before tried idea come to fruition.
I'm also certain that he's a stand-up guy who will report back even if it doesn't do what he's claimed it will. I bet he'll even find a Wiki article that explains why it made so little difference.
Patience gentlemen, patience... |
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Max Welton
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Location: Black Forest, CO
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Max
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slalombuggy
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Posts: 3720
Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: |
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2 problems I see.
Solid pushrods will be weak unless made of steel and then they will be very heavy requiring heavy valve springs, which will be hard on your valve train.
Pushrods DO NOT move in a linear motion, they swing in a slight arc. Thus, your seal will have to float in the P/R tube.
brad
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 1810
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: Re: That's what I'm talkin bout! |
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| glmel wrote: | I see at least one VW legend on here. Hi Jake. I am sure a few more here may be in the making. As for "how long" someone does something...what difference does that make? Some people have it, some people never get it. I would venture to bet, having read everything on the internet I cared to research, for 12 hrs a day for 14 days straight, I know "a little bout it"
So here it is. I have this on an excel sheet and do not know how to share that on this site. But here are the written instructions from that sheet, copy and paste. ...
Ask yourself, how on earth can a squirrel cage fan adequately cool any high performance engine and it's heads? Truth is, it can't. Period.
That same fan will not even properly cool a stock horsepower bus at freeway speeds in excess of 65 MPH. The heads and oil overheat.
It about made me puke to see someone write "EVERYTHING that could have be done to a VW has been done in the past 60 years". Oh Really?
Here is a simple plan for a system that will cool the heads. How much depends on money. How much do you want to spend? How cool do you want them? ( don't get things too cool, it will not run right, right? )
This new type of oil system and it is NOT a part of the main engine oiling system. With this modification the engine oil and head cooling oil will be two separate and independent oiling systems.
The engine oil will now strictly lubricate the crank lifters, cam bearings and the rotating assembly bearings, as well as distributor gear and lower cylinder and piston.
The head cooling oil will take care of the rocker arms and cool the heads. Add a higher volume pump and bigger cooling coil to cool heads even more.
Heated oil form the heads will NO LONGER trickle back into the crankcase to add heat to the engine oil. Engine oil will pick up heat from the bearings and pistons ONLY. The engine oil heat will now be easily maintained at an acceptable temperature with just the doghouse cooler and perhaps larger sump.
The way it works:
Push rods are plugged or solid ones are used as they no longer supply crank case oil to the rockers, valves and heads.
The port in which the pushrod passes through the head, below the rocker arm, is fitted with a seal much the same as a valve stem seal as used on Chevy heads. This seal isolates the head oil form flowing down into the crank case and the pushrods pass through these 8 seal to actuate the 8 rocker arms.
An oil reservoir is placed somewhere on the chassis at or below the level of the valve covers. Harley Davidson utilizes a remote reservoir mounted on the frame. A scavenger pump is plumbed into this reservoir which circulates oil through a cooling coil, with fan if you like, returning cooled oil to the top supply side of the valve covers.
The valve covers are fitted with a tube on the top side of them which will allow oil to be directed to flow right onto the head and supply cooling oil to them. The heated oil then exits a lower ( perhaps larger ) port on the bottom or side of the valve cover. Use your imagination. A tube inside the cover spraying oil on the top of the cylinder head...or tube on the outside top of the cover with ports and fittings directing it along the same path. Main thing, it is cool ( or downright cold ) oil is drenching the heads.
Hot oil flows off the head and down, exiting the valve cover on a lower fitting that is plumbed into the reservoir, where the process repeats…..I think it is different I am pretty sure I can make it work.
Experimentation will have to be done to ascertain what amount of flow will cool to what degree. As well, it may even be possible to partially flood the valve cover up to below the valve springs to further cool the heads.
Cooler heads will positively make more horsepower. As well, cooler engine oil will add many more useful miles to the life of the engine. Engine oil will not break down as rapidly due to the reduced heat meaning more miles between changes and better oil in your engine. .
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Hero or Zero... |
You did 2 WHOLE weeks of research? That's all I needed to hear, where do I send my $50,000? |
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yamaducci
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Ha yeah I hear you Roy; 32 years and still learning here!
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chrisflstf
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Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Its my understanding that the oil supplied by the pushrods is for the valves and rockers and not so much the head as the heat from the head is in the combustion chambers. That part of the head is air-cooled, so how would flooding the rocker area with oil, cool the real source of the heat in the chambers? |
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ALB
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| chrisflstf wrote: | | Its my understanding that the oil supplied by the pushrods is for the valves and rockers and not so much the head as the heat from the head is in the combustion chambers. That part of the head is air-cooled, so how would flooding the rocker area with oil, cool the real source of the heat in the chambers? |
More oil will remove more heat, but the question (as I see it) is whether it will do what the op thinks it will do.
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Alstrup
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Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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3 words: Hoover aviation mods.
I bet this approach is just an alternative way of achieving the same goal.
So in short, we have most likely done this mod already for about 20 years.
T |
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Altema
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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If you are so concerned with removing heat from the heads, how about preventing it in the first place? Heanium coating has been around for years and reduces thermal transfer to the cylinder head. Then you thermal coat the exhaust ports to drop the heat going into the head there, and I think it would be more effective than oil cooling the heads.
For myself though, I have to say that I certainly don't drive like a granny, and I've had no heat problems pushing a type one up mountains for hours at a time... Matter of fact, I can't get my engine temps past 150F unless driving at a good pace, and my thermostat partially closes while cruising below 50mph. We're not talking a light weight trike with 40 horses here either, this is a 1584 cc that can push a full bodied car past 100mph.
Regarding the pushrods; the pushrods are not parallel with lifter travel, and the the outer end in the head follows the rocker arm cup as it pivots. This gives the outer end an up-and-down motion in normal operation, so it will be tough to seal. The pushrod itself is an oil passage which feeds the valvetrain, so solid pushrods are out of the question unless you have an alternate path. One more thing; the valve guides in type 1 engines have no valve stem seals, so if you are flooding the head with oil, you will need to change that, like has been mentioned already.
Not trying to pick apart your idea, but I am a patent-holding inventor and look at the feasibility and ROI, as well as design issues that need to be dealt with in order to make a product viable. If you really want to show your idea is a good solution (and this is for any product), then build it, test it, and prove it works better.
Paul |
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mark tucker
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Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| so are we to stop using the infared guns for track temp? and just lick the track with out tounge to see if it's cold,warm,hot or effing blazing?and I thought those were fool proof!!! we always check with atleast 3 others and compair.then take an educated gess.that way cooler heads will prevail. |
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TURBOEDVW
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Posts: 161
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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If you never overheat your heads, the motor is going to last as long as its going to last regardless if you keep your heads 50*F cooler or not. For example if you run methanol or E85 it may run cooler but that doesn't mean you just increased the life of the engine or made any more power.
The pushrods spin when using a flat tappet cam? Seems unpractical to try and seal a spinning pushrod. Maybe you would have to go with roller rockers.  |
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JustBuggy
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Location: SF Bay Area, Ca.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| slalombuggy wrote: | 2 problems I see.
Solid pushrods will be weak unless made of steel and then they will be very heavy requiring heavy valve springs, which will be hard on your valve train.
Pushrods DO NOT move in a linear motion, they swing in a slight arc. Thus, your seal will have to float in the P/R tube.
brad |
This was what I was thinking as well. Pretty tough to get a seal on a pushrod that's going in and out as well as up and down at the same time. Perhap some sort of accordian boot?
However, if you can do it more power to you! Show us what ya got!!!!! |
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Boolean
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:29 am Post subject: |
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Sealing a pushrod close to the lifter should be a non issue. Most valve stem seals can take a bit of radial misalignment.
There are other more advanced seals off the shelf too - and I would think that it doesn't even have to be perfectly sealed if the same type of oil is used, and the coolant oil tank has the level in the same height as the sump.
I am not sure cooling the rocker shaft and rocker cover does much good though... |
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vdubin
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: |
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To the OP... if you think this will make a difference then go for it, but you are not the first to think of it. I thought of it a few years ago and here are a few things for you and the others.
the heat he is actually trying to remove is the heat passed through the roof of the combustion chamber into the rocker area. the problem is that there is nothing in the rocker area to increase surface contact of the new oil system, you will have to weld in some heat sinks.
sealing the pushrods cannot happen at the rockers because of the previously stated pushrod travel at the rocker. however at the lifter the travel is quite near linear and you could seal the pushrods there and use the pushrod tubes as your oil drain and return system collecting the oil at the case. for the this the best option is to lose the compression spring at the case and have the case seal installed in your pr tube ends making the pr tubes side specific and a single assembley.
also you mention that you are going to lubricated the cam bearings and lifters... no you wont. the oiling system for those items is built into the case and is not recommended to be altered. you will create a blockage in your lifters if you use solid push rods. you can use hollow push rods that are plugged at each end, making provision for the oil that passes through the lifters and into the pushrods to escape at the lifter prior to the seal in the pr tubes. this will also increase oil splash and may assist in piston cooling. I would not recommend using solid lifters as you will increase noise and can increase wear.
I'm not going to say that this is a waste of time as all progress is deemed fruitless untill proven wrong and you may actually come up with a system that can benefit the vw engine community. However, all the assistance I can give is what I have provided. good luck. |
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Bashr52
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Why not just add a second fan to the shroud?  Run a dual fan setup with baffles to get the air going where you want it. More air should cool better right  |
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DarthWeber
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Let's not forget Super Squishy pistons from AirCooled.Net
Not exactly inexpensive but the results are undeniable.
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| Mitey62 wrote: | | Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: | | JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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dawie
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Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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Super Squishies indeed. For increased thermal efficiency. By converting more heat (energy that would otherwise be wasted), into useful pressure/energy.
Would'nt surprise me if John makes them available in 85.5mm and other sizes in the near future. A 94mm piston shaped to the type 4 chamber would be a welcome addition as well. |
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theastronaut
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Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Anybody else getting PM's from this guy spamming his idea? Seriously dude, you already have this thread- I read it yesterday on my own without your help. I don't think it's that great of an idea because it's super complicated. VW's are not complicated, that's a big part of their appeal to a lot of people. I don't think the amount of time, effort, and money involved is worth the minimal improvement in head temps you'll supposedly gain- not to mention the likely loss of reliability due to such a complicated system that has so many things that could go wrong. This is not something I want or need for my VW.
It's great that you've got your thinking cap on, and nobody has a problem with you bringing it here for discussion. Just stay out of our inboxes!
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theastronaut
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Location: Anderson, SC
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: | Let's not forget Super Squishy pistons from AirCooled.Net
Not exactly inexpensive but the results are undeniable. |
I bet they're cheaper than this guys "cooling system" would be, and would produce better results as fas as cooling goes, not to mention their other benefits. Plus they don't add 20 places that oil could leak like all the external plumbing needed for this guys idea. They also weigh less than the Mahle pistons they'd be replacing, where this guys system would add a substantial amount of weight to the wrong end of a VW.
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Strive for perfection in everything. Take the best that exist and make it better. If it doesn't exist, create it. Accept nothing nearly right or good enough."
-Sir Henry Royce, co-founder of Rolls-Royce
'64 Sunroof OG Bahama Blue
'66 Bug
Pro-Touring '66 Chevy C10 Short Fleet Big Window Build |
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