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Overheating 1969 1500SP... please help... I'm out of options
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get an OE spring. You do not want the cooler to be blowing up...

Also take the gen out of the shroud and get an inside fan measurement!! Then please post that result.
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

back-of-the-napkin calculation puts the relief valve fully open at 56psi with the "pressure booster kit" while the old one I have will be fully open by around 30psi. No freaking wonder... And we're looking for 45psi, right?

What dimension do you want me to measure on the fan?
ETA: I measured the exducer (fan outlet) thickness, and just the blades measured 29mm, blades and side plates were 32mm. Isn't it supposed to be either 28 or 34?
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds about right. Found with 70 F weather, 30 Wt. and once warmed up we could just barely get the oil pressure down to 60 PSI with one of those too stiff relief springs.

Need measurement between the two discs that make up the main body of the fan at the outer diameter.

While not your main cause it would be good to clean the casting flash out of the head fins shown in your image.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

between the discs is the 29mm measurement. If I had thinner files, I would love to clean up the casting flash... but I don't, and my hand still wants to bleed if I do anything more than hold something in that hand. Maybe the -next- time I pull the engine...

Where would y'all suggest getting OE springs?
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

29mm wide fan is the biggest VW with SP before going to DH shroud and the 33mm wide fan. Might try fitting this bigger fan for more cooling.

As for the relief spring, you could advertise in the classifieds here in this website, or if you have a local VW shop that rebuilds engines they should have them by the bucket full.

Did you check the oil pump for proper tolerance between the rear of the gears and the oil pump cover?? You could also polish most of the scoring out of the cover with some sandpaper on flat piece of glass. Have used wing window glass for this.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With heater boxes and all tin removed it is a lot easier to use a circular saw to carefully cut out the casting flash. Just have to have steady hands and do not go too deep!!

Aw, that is just a flesh wound. Laughing
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to mention, take a measurement between the fan and the gen tin. Should be pretty close to .080". Also make sure the gen tin vent is aimed properly downward or the gen can overheat.
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

did some more number-crunching, and an indicated 65mph equates to roughly 3200 rpm... and if you assume a 10psi/1000rpm... and a bypass that opens around 30psi (give or take a half dozen)... that sounds like my problem right there. I'm already putting the engine back together, and I'll have her done tomorrow. Then I wait for new springs, and something to check them with... so I can be a little more accurate in my guesstimates.

Thanks for all the help guys 'n gals. I'll report back when I get another test run in. (an axle boot exploded on the last one, so I have to fix that before I actually run her hard again)
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mav,
I don't think you posted the numbers from your distributor. But, you said it was timed at 0 degrees. I'm running a 30 pict 1 with a vacuum only distributor 113 905 205k and I static time it at 7.5 degrees before TDC. The engine is 1300 single port. I think you may be timed to slow. Also with the timing light and all in vacuum advance it is right at 28 degrees before TDC. You might give it a try. Good luck. CW
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted my dizzy number just below all the pix. It's the correct, original dizzy for a 69. It needs to be timed to 0BTDC, due to it advancing 32-35 degrees, as per:

http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A6970M

Thanks, though.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must have been to busy checking out the pictures. sorry. Good luck on the heating issue. CW
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got new OEM wheels (had another thread in the wheels section about that) and a new bypass spring from CB Performance. Great experience there. Tested the spring, and if I tested and calculated it right, it should open between 45 and 47psi. Perfection. Very HappyVery Happy I'll be installing it tomorrow, but I won't be testing the poor girl until I get my temp dipstick back from a coworker who "needed" it to take his '74 Westy on a road trip (I say "needed" because he was pretty desperate to use it, but once on the road, it "came on real quick so I unplugged it and kept driving"
*shrugs*
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpha-
One other thing to consider is the elevated engine speed at a given road speed due to your smaller diameter tires.
Remember, oil temp is directly related to RPM. The higher the rev's the higher the oil temp will be. To drive at 70 MPH actual, your engine will be turning much faster than with stock size tires.
Good luck, Mondshine
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that bus guy , ignorance is bliss, what you don't know can't hurt you, sigh.
my 1cent from the peanut gallery.

This post is GENERIC (not just for you, after all i cant touch your car or guess by clairvoyance)
it is a list of causes, that only you can to the tests and sort the results.
over heating IS:
1: motor is overheating
2: cooling failure
3: both. the cooling on a stock motor has a large excess capacity.
or

1: spark timed wrong.
2: carb running lean for a huge list of reasons.... (AFR meter it and find that fast, with out an AFR , its spark tip readings, etc.

car running lean can be a good carb, but air leaks make all carbs run lean.
so at the top of all lean reasons, add leak tests.

I dont know the full conditions of the overheat.
1: idle, racing in neutral, cruising on the flat or only on hills.

but here are some checks.

Your distributor. learn how yours works , then test it.
that dist is a vacuum only disty (fact)
and makes full advance , (correct carb match) at 90mm vacuum, 3 .2 inchs HG on the scale. Read the bentleys or OLDVOLKSHOME.
so the static time is at 0 , it is, some early 68s have SVDA yours dont 69

you then put the engine under full load, the special venturi nipple
is at 0 HG (hot idle) and advances to 3 inches, at full engine load.
that is how it works. and is not easy to test. (a load disty)
ONE WAY: (there are better,for sure)

I do it by testing the disty with a vacuum pump , checked to my bentleys table for my 205M disty. I call it a MIKE ,mil style.

then make sure the carb nipple orifice .032 is clear
it both tests work and the tube is good, then it will work for sure.
live testing takes special tools with this setup.


TIRES: post circumference?. of tire, (ask wife for seamstress meas. tape)

I hope your too hot tool works (GBE) and is not Chickenlittle.

if the cooling system is good (it has extra capacity)
check for no power pulley option (it cuts 11% from extra, and sucks)
if the oil pressure is normal ,is it? no 30mm pump and insane springs.
then your carb is too lean, tune the carb richer.
make sure the POWER jet is the correct size and clear.
The main jet must be run tad richer on all 69s they are lean new and are
smog jets. tune it for like 13.5: 1 AFR, do not run 14:1 or leaner.

btw , pinging causes overheating
and overheating caused pinging..... fact. (its a place never to go ever, think of a pit to fall into. and get the idea.. it's not a water car.)

So put the static timing to 0 (Mike and Tango , 205M/205T DISTYS)
then for sure it will never advance too far. it wont. How can it.

THEN ATTACK CARB TUNE:
log all jets sizes. do not ever trust stamps on old jets.
many of the web pages here , show trusting them , this is folly,!!!
MEASURE THEM. and win. ( done a few carbs i have, for 50 years)

this is a fact, not a guess. i pull many carbs , and many are drilled. about 1/2
after 40 years, the biggest Porsche site claims the same thing. any wonder.?
same guys that drill jets, drive any car. seems so, huh?

i ream them then when happy , i buy real ones ( I use reams never twist drills)
YMMV, and i hope you find the cause.


edit, i forgot my list , my 21 point list , not for you , EXACTLY, all VWs.


Carb too lean, or air leaks in the plenum induction path causing same.
Fan belt slipping (OMG Missing?), use an optical tachometer to find it your just set it to spec. at 3000 crank the fan spins 5400 RPM. (1.8:1 ratio)
Generator bearing , seizing causing the belt to slip at high speeds. Put in some new HQ bearings they cheap.
Fan loose on it's shaft (slipping) (or damage fan, use a mirror to see it) { one guy found a pre dog house fan , in a dog house motor. (too narrrow}
Fan plugged with debit or in housing. (examinations) (nesting animals?)
Main housing cooling Flaps missing/jammed, thermostat missing, Thermostat bad/jammed, it opens at 205F , does it? Stat Rod missing.
Make sure the rear engine deck lid has extra louvers (etc), if you motor is larger than stock "Punched OUT" or is 1970 and newer.
Make sure the engine rubbers (surround) are in place and not allowing hot air from exhaust area to suck in to the rear fan suction opening .
Some numb skull put a POWER PULLEY ON THE REAR of crankshaft. (yes, you decreased fan cooling ) ( if not drag racing $$$$ avoid this !)
Cylinder/head fins packed with dirt, leaves, gum wrapper,etc. "only inspections solve this simple failure"
Carb running way too lean, tune it (or repair it) so that AFR is near 13:1 "air fuel ratio"
Distributor is bad, (or the wrong one) and does not advance proper or advances, too far.(pinging is it?)
Even unheard detonation (pings) will cause over heating, learn to time a dizzy with a timing light at full advance and YOUR FUEL.
Distributor vacuum advance dead ( because the diaphragm is cracked) or is jammed. Some Dizzy's ( 68-70) are 100% vacuum advance.
Distributor advance weights stuck, missing, jammed or springs wrong or missing. (Gremlins, at work? Hacker)
Distributor clamp loose.
Excessive oil pressure such that , it bypasses the oil cooler.see next line for reason. Running a non stock huge oil pump?
(get rid of 30mm pump and those silly 30 pound relief springs. Yes, put it back to stock. Is the rear relief pressure valve stuck closed? (look) Buy an oil pressure gauge!
Driving with a dead cylinder can overheat the other 3, while flogging the poor motor to death ( this falls under overloading the motor)
Oil cooler missing or packed up inside or the outside fins. Never remove any stock oil coolers and drive , sure add one. but do not remove the stock cooler.
Missing cooling TINS. Many are critical to cooling. (most) Keep in mind the tins are for ALL CLIMATES.
See the TIN TEST by HOTVW 2012 (pulled 1 rear tin, and bingo overheat)
Carb ICE might not cause overheating (unless carb goes lean/iced up) but the tins for the air induction strove, do have a purpose. Consider that fact.
The Induction has an EXHAUST heat riser, make every effort to make sure it works ,and stays hot. (can cause cyclical, rich and lean) Don't tune carb until this is fixed.
That RISER takes periodic maintenance , that requires hard work to clean it, inside path, the heat tube inside with a small chain.
One guy , had his heat riser fill of with water and it froze to ice and expanded and this cracked the main induction tube. Causing massive lean and overheating.
Bad driving? (slow down or down shift ).
Running low test fuel (low octane rated) in a high compression engine (not stock?) or having the wrong distributor or having the distributor tuned wrong.!
The engine exhaust is blocked, somehow? pretty hard to do, but completes this list.
Someone bought a HOT ROD $$$ cooling fan housing and like most aftermarket parts are a POS. Those guide fins found inside. are not optional.
The heater tube pipes at the left and right side of the fan housing are missing? letting huge air leaks weaken the system.
Something far worse, than the simple things above, "engine damage"
end , my list. add more if you can....
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just some small dents to work out
and a selling it.
going back to jeeps @ #4
those are natural boobs.

I'm not the original candymustang.
he left do to bad actors here, and I wanted him to live on, may god bless you the orig. candy.
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Last edited by candymustang66 on Mon May 28, 2012 7:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I've always checked the relief springs is to find a piece of steel tube which fits inside the spring. I set the tube in a vice with one end protruding the specified loaded length. Then use a hook made from shirt hanger wire to pull the spring flush to the pipe with a handheld scale (like fishermen use).
Like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

It's a little primitive, but better than nothing.
Good luck, Mondshine
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ran it on the highway again, no change, with the new oil pressure relief spring. I'm at my wits end.

I've checked the dizzy, and it advances just fine. I haven't been able to check if it's getting proper signal at WOT, but that's all I can think of at this point. Any other ideas that I -haven't- covered?

Oh, and it's a stock 69 pulley, as well.
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morymob
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U never did verify if u have the flat tins under the cyls. What about thst opening,I would unhook the thst and make sure flaps in housing fully open and test drive, u will be getting max air flo to cyls.Hoses from blower hsng to heater boxes on?? Did u actually set timing about 3 degrees slow and test,i'm not too sold on this dizzy.
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, I did. I have -all- tins in place. I said that earlier.

I have already confirmed that the flaps are fully open at temperature. several times.

What do you mean "not too sold"? It's the factory 1969 distributor, and it reaches full advance by ~3 in Hg, just like it's supposed to. I'm not sure that it's -getting- that signal, and that's my next test.
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candymustang66
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i consolidated my above post
and added the Macro ways and Micro examples.
_________________
100% now for mechanical. runs like Bandit.
just some small dents to work out
and a selling it.
going back to jeeps @ #4
those are natural boobs.

I'm not the original candymustang.
he left do to bad actors here, and I wanted him to live on, may god bless you the orig. candy.
new domain, for my web page. 9-25-2013


Last edited by candymustang66 on Mon May 28, 2012 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

First off, candymustang66:
You clearly didn't read all of the rest of the thread. It took me a while to make myself read through everything you were telling me to check that I'd already done. That said: I've know that my heat riser was clogged, but didn't even think that it might be related to the overheating... More on that later.

Two or three weeks ago (this -is- my daily, btw), she started to misfire under load. Idle was as smooth as ever. I drove her for a week that way before I finally had time to try and find the problem. Here's what I found:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
By alpha_maverick at 2012-05-27

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
By alpha_maverick at 2012-05-27

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
By alpha_maverick at 2012-05-27

Well... that would certainly cause a problem... But It wasn't like that before, so it's not the source of my overheat.
I dug around here, and found that it wasn't all that uncommon. Last weekend, I filled the hole with JB Weld. Smooth and clean fix. I didn't take any pics of the repair, though. She still overheats, so that wasn't it.

When I finally got around to reading everything candymustang66 posted, I realized that my heat riser, or lack thereof, may be the culprit. I dug around on the net, and found this:
http://www.carburetorclinic.com/heatriser_tech.html
In that, you'll see that (effective) mixture is certainly affected by the heat riser and how well it functions. I then knew I needed to clean mine. Yesterday, I had the day off, and got an early start, with some stranded cable from Home Depot. After several hours of getting covered in various shades of carbon, I got the cable stuck in the heat riser. After trying to break it loose from the other side, I burned through the wall at one of the bends. At that point, I decided that I was wasting effort, so I just called it a day, and ordered a new Repro manifold from Mid-America. I've not been terribly impressed with their quality, so we'll see how it goes. I'm now driving my 8mpg truck, until I get the new manifold installed.
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