009 timing question

[Mikedrevguy]

how was it that you adjusted the idle?
did you follow these procedures (or ones like them) to ensure you have proper mixture with the idle speed?

http://www.vw-resource.com/30PICT2.html#carb

good luck.
Rev.
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[Joel]

I reckon you will find the timing scale on the pulley is off.
Wouldn't be the first time the scale on an aftermarket degreed pulley was way off.

This would also account for the backfiring on overrun, a sign of ignition too far retarded

[candymustang66]

no photo of the engine. (found it, but not data on that pulley, make and pn)
so we cant guess what you got.
stock pulley. or nice aftermarket pulley.? what ? photos are amazing things...

first get a real BOSCH 009, not those junk clones ones.
if you must run clone, then , it's your job to tune it back to vw spec.
because it will be wrong. (inside, spring and weight and stops)
i can run a clone, all day, but i ASSUME its 100% wrong and tune it.


first off , its seems you have a timing light. good !
but you dont use it right. where is your TACHO data ?
here is what you do, using this or , electric tacho meter.
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Photo-Laser-Tachomet...amp;sr=8-2

you said you found the all-in advance at 42 but failed to say at what rpm
1000?
4000 rpm ,what.?
then you said, you retarded it to 32, was that at the max ALL-IN RPM
unstated RPM. ?
not using a tachometer is a fail , for sure. the 009 is an RPM DEVICE.
pure and brutally simple to a fault. but they too can mess up.

lets say the all in is at 3500 at 42 deg.
so you drop it to 32 at 3500
then you let go of the throttle.
it stalls, so you raise the idle setting and it idles (timing does effect idle !)
then you look at timing with the strobe at idle ,where is it NOW?

20 BTDC (right of zero)
or 20 ATDC (left of zero)

where?
use the Tacho and Strobe and make a plot of your 009 (and maker)
then we can tell you just how messed up it is.

a photograph of the back side of the disty will show what we need, to start
a real bosch has the Bosch marks.
and 0231-178-009 (there are 4 Bosch 009s and many more clones)

example of not guessing
the dial indicator.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/921204.jpg
and the pulley (solid steel ,extra heavy type to protect crank vibs)

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/921203.jpg

the motor is not assembled, im only checking the pulley. marks.
the dial shows true tdc, like no other way can. and for sure piston stops.
if you need pn of a pulley that is not crap , let me know.

[candymustang66]

ok , i read your photo library
you have a 1969 body T1,
car Came with vacuum only 205T disty and Pict2 carb.
and day one full advance was 32-35deg (varies by disty natural variances)
42 is crazy. too much. and even crazier of running over CR than stock.

with an unknown displacement and CR , engine.
with custom , induction and carb, exh, and a unknown 009
fill in the rest of the story on what is in the motor that effects displacement and CR.
and full carb spec, brand, venturi size. model.# , nice scat air cleaner.

take a trip over to the performance section of this forum (your welcome any place)
see how serious custom motor builders spec their motors out fully
then post a question. after all , no one can guess.?
custom motor tuning is a carefully followed path...
CR = Compression ratio.
did you deck the block.?
did you measure deck height, before popping on the heads?
did you CC the heads?
all this counts, big time in tuning.

note post to your questions , are wrong because your car has no stock carb.





.......

[itsonlysir]

with more testing the car runs great as long as im balls out .. any deceleration the car wants to die . if it dont it sputters like crazy then finally will start accelerate .


also i had a friend that gave me a msd ignition (multiple spark discharge) . its the 6AL part number 6420 .. and a msd super coil . i am thinking of adding this to my car, just for the hell of it . what yall think ?
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life is like a doughnut , you just got to role with it .

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[itsonlysir]

just now seeing te posts , i will now go back and read and reply to them
_________________
life is like a doughnut , you just got to role with it .

Im just a squarel,trying to get my nut !!

[itsonlysir]

that carb was taken off the day of that picture and thrown in the trash .

i do not know of most of the info you are asking . when i built my motor i did not know much about vw motors at all .. this is what i know .

every part in the case was new ...
new stock case
new stock heads
new high flow oil pump
counterweight crank stock size
110 cam
tap out for full flow . 8 pass oil cooler .and filter .

it is a empi pully , not sure of the size or part number . nothing inside the case was old , all bought new . the top half was reused .

the dizzy i have must be a knock off . its stamped jfz number is 0 231 178 009 .

i am looking thru my stuff i know i have a vacuum advance dis somewhere but not sure if it works ..

anymore info you need just ask ..
___________________________________________________________

and no i was adjusting the carb wrong , i was fallowing that plan , but was turning screw number 1 in that picture . not screw number 2 . maybe thats my issue .
_________________
life is like a doughnut , you just got to role with it .

Im just a squarel,trying to get my nut !!

[shok]

[itsonlysir]

also my volume control screw does not have a spring around it like this write up says .. and what is the #2 screw in that drawing ?
_________________
life is like a doughnut , you just got to role with it .

Im just a squarel,trying to get my nut !!

[Joel]

[candymustang66]

that was my point (sorry for not being clear enough but..)
it's a 69 T1 body (see that word body, i was making light of the fact
that its just a body) and the whole reason for my posting his motor picture
to again make light of " that is not stock motor
there i said it.
what's in the back who knows?
and was trying to say, in the performance section of this forum
the posters , post the spec of said new custom engine first, not last.
just saying....

and just saying i have 009 means zero. zip
i can drop 25 009s on my bench and not 2 are the same.
not even close.
they look the same, the all drop into that block hole. and fit.

but his engine stalls. as he cuts the throttle to zero. even moving in gear
.
that means (assuming motor is good, lol)
that its timed wrong, (he never on once stated advance at min rpm and max)
or the carb is too lean. jetting.
or he has induction leaks (intake manifold boots, etc)

[candymustang66]

[candymustang66]

lets tick them off, (all i have is a single snap shot, not clear enough yet)
1: WHAT CARB, model number , and make.?
what venturi size is it.
what are all the jet sizes, including , air, and fuel jets.
is the float level set to mfg. spec (sure is not in the VW book)


2: what engine. CC what is the displacement 1.5L (honed out) 1.6. 1.9l

3: what is the CR ,what is the compression ratio.

3a: or what is the CC of each combustion chamber. 54cc? or way less.
(this is key to seeing how radical the build was)

4: photo graph the back side of the disty so experts can identify which one of the 100 it might be,,,, you can skip this if you know how to tune a disty by hand, do you? ,its not hard to learn. it is a very primitive device.
009 means zero to anyone. Unless a photo (or list) of all letters and numbers stamped on the back side.


a typical 009 , each mark is important.
the 9/65 is Sept, 65

[candymustang66]

btw you have your idle advance totally wrong. (makes starting hard)

set it so the total, max rpm is near 30
then look at idle (check and set idle after above)
then check idle , it will be for closer to 0 degrees now.
then adjust carb.

Do adjust the carb idle until you are sure the advance
is in the back stops
that is , when the advance is totally dead and is at Minimum.
this is when the advance weight is bottomed out held by the spring
A tachometer helps. setting the idle to spec, once at spec idle
the advance is in the stops.l (unless the spring is missing , wrong or stretched out) we always check the advance to see at what RPM it begins (and ends at max RPM)
we never trust that it works right, we make sure it does, work right.
no advance action (dynamic advance) at idle.
1:static advance (near zero it will be)
2: when does advance begin. what rpm ? zillon 009s , no 2 the same , sigh.
3: when (rpm) does advance end. and at what RPM.

this takes all of 5 mins work with a tach and a strobe in hand.

if the 009 works right , it will be near 2 at idle (math 32-30=2)
and 30 degr, at max rpm point. (ALL-IN) Start at 30 and work up if brave.
(brave is a number that matches your CR, UNSAID ever)
this assumes that your disty is 0-32 deg, disty, some are not.
a real 009 by bosch and sold by VW
did this.
OLDVOLKSHOME data: (this may apply to only Real BOSCH 009s

Bosch 0231 178 009
Timing Set At:: Most applications - 5 to 7.5deg BTDC Static. Full advance should not exceed 32 degrees at 3000rpm with stroboscopic timing light. Here's a couple of links dealing with this subject:

so if this is true.
if you set yours to 30 degr. max
the idle advance (static) will be 3 to 5.5deg BTDC.
why the range, that is an easy question.
that is the tolerance of accuracy back long ago.
the full dynamic range can vary 4 degree's , on most of these old parts (new) after 40 years, MORE.

look carefully at Mr. Oldvolkshome pages.
he collects Distys. bless him for doing that, and for trying to find these facts out.
so if HE is unsure, then its you can be sure the 009s, are Nebula's.
that 3 digit number means ZERO to him, me or any motor tuner.
what we do , is characterize what you have, then tune it to YOUR motor.
If really serious. buy a top 009 clone that comes with a box of weights and
springs, and then tune from scratch.

[itsonlysir]

i am sorry if this info is wrong . have not done this before . but after setting my timing to 30* btdc ( to the right of the tdc mark ) @3500 RPM. then setting my idle to 900 rpm . at idle im around 4-5 deg btdc

it seams to start to advance around 1700 rpm . and stops advancing around 3700 rpm ...

i will double check this info again tomorrow .. as it was getting a bit dark .. but .
_________________
life is like a doughnut , you just got to role with it .

Im just a squarel,trying to get my nut !!

[candymustang66]

that is great
that 009 is working perfect. no? seems its a real 009 too,
real 009s sell for top buck on the classifieds, so lock that motor lid.
but is not the best, there are many better, with working vacuum advance.
so now tune that carb.

[itsonlysir]

what do you mean by a real 009 ? and funny. i dont run a deck lid t all ..
_________________
life is like a doughnut , you just got to role with it .

Im just a squarel,trying to get my nut !!

[erikgundy98]

Your gap on your points might be off- therefore affecting your timing. Check to see if your points are gapped correct. Then check your plugs to make sure your have the proper gap there too. Those should be done first before adjusting your idle mixture or timing.

If you have a dwell meter, use it to set your points. If you dont have one, and you want to save your engine and get it tuned correctly, investing in a cheap dwell meter might help your cause.

I was having the same problems- I put in new points and still could not get it right. Then I adjusted the dwell on the points before messing with timing or idle adjustment and it now purrs like a kitten with no hot issues.
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[candymustang66]

the dwell is non critical , 42-58deg. VW spec, and is the coil needs, it is what must be happy here, not the CAR the engine or you expensive dwell meter.
the minimum dwell gets the coil up to full saturation. 42deg does that.

set the gap at .016" and leave it there.
than set the timing, but he did all that. read this post Yesterday 7:09 pm

[itsonlysir]

not running points .. i have the electric ignition .. valves are set correct .
_________________
life is like a doughnut , you just got to role with it .

Im just a squarel,trying to get my nut !!