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MoPor
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Joined: December 03, 2010
Posts: 208
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:09 am Post subject: |
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I agree with some of your comments Adam for sure. However, many aren't looking for a club and don't want to pay for a magazine. That is the crux. I certainly was disappointed with the unbrotherly like comments from some of the Trustees and senior members though. What is even more interesting is the lack of commentary by many members.
Matthew Devereux |
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mpribanic
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2004
Posts: 3016
Location: Neptune Beach, Florida
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I think a member should post a link on the main 356 forum to the samba poll and to this thread. Of course we want to ask for their opinions and comments. The thread on the Registry is buried. I would not have found it had I not read this thread. I bet others have no idea this is even being discussed. I would post it but am taking a 30 day time out from the Registry.
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DanM
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Joined: June 07, 2002
Posts: 1229
Location: Arlington, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:40 am Post subject: |
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wow... I just suffered through all 17 (and counting) pages of that thread.
I say "tear it down". In the internet age, the privilege of being in the company of those who have knowledge is not something you need to pay for anymore.
Being a part of a community is free. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 41909
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| ensys wrote: | | It also makes clear to anyone that can add that the expense of the magazine is driving the budget. One might well conclude that: 1) The magazine is the most important thing that the Club does. 2) The drive in the last 10 years to make the magazine the envy of the world has made its current unit cost unsustainable regardless of the number of dues-paying members. |
First, their newsletter/magazine is awesome. It is better than anything else I have seen by far.
I don't admit to knowing how much it costs to print 8,000 issues of their magazine 6 times/year(?) but I do wonder if they have investigated modern printing shops. It is really, really cheap to print color stuff these days and gets cheaper all the time.
Of course I am assuming the only magazine costs are printing & mailing, which may not be true.
$35/6 = $5.83/issue. $1.83 is probably postage so $3/issue? Is that high? I did a quick estimate for a 64-page full-color magazine at a place I had stuff printed in the past and it was closer to $2/issue.
Anyway, the above may be totally out of line and wild speculation and if that is the case, ignore me. 
Edit, I read the latest on the registry site and found this
| Quote: | | the cost of producing the club magazine, it is actually $265,000/year for 6 issues |
So $265000/6 issues/8000 members = $5.52 per issue
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DanM
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2002
Posts: 1229
Location: Arlington, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Having gone through similar thing with other clubs, it seems easy enough to continue printing hard copies for those who want them (i.e., old people), and offer discounted "internet only" subscription rates to the rest. Some people want to hold the magazine and will never go online, but those people are an ever-shrinking minority. Eventually you're left with an "internet only" club with minimal or no dues... is that even a club anymore? Not really. Does it matter? No.
I think the people building up walls around the 356 Registry just want to protect what "they have" and care nothing about the future of the scene, or the cars.
Take Charlie White - he compiles and SELLS books containing the Porsche equivalent of what is free for VWs on thesamba.com He and people like him have a vested interest in keeping the Porsche scene a closed community so they can be seen as important.
Last edited by DanM on Thu May 03, 2012 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jennepher
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Joined: September 10, 2002
Posts: 3900
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| DanM wrote: | | Tear it down. |
A bit overdramatic in my opinion. You can either choose to be a part of the site or not, do you really need to advocate for its destruction?
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DanM
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Joined: June 07, 2002
Posts: 1229
Location: Arlington, VA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jennepher wrote: | | DanM wrote: | | Tear it down. |
A bit overdramatic in my opinion. You can either choose to be a part of the site or not, do you really need to advocate for its destruction? |
To clarify, my "tear it down" comment was a reference to my earlier comment that the Registry is building walls around itself.
I'm not advocating for the Registry's destruction... quite the contrary!
*I re-read my previous post and it's confusing, so I removed the Ronald Regan-esque "tear it down" comment. |
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dawerks
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Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1613
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Almost all of the 356 back issues are available (free!) if you order something from some of the 356 vendors. I have 2 sets of these 9 CD collections. Plus, I bought a grip load of Registry mags on ebay for about .40cents delivered.
It's sad to cross post from that other thread, but I think it's relevant here... Dan Epperly (Braukuche) drops the big bomb!! The gorilla in the room has been revealed, thank you!
| Quote: | There is plenty of talent, and you can't beat the advice, but the classifieds suck.
Over on the Samba, a primarily VW site, there are currently 2,700 356 parts ads, on this site, a little over 200. I have to wonder how many of the "you gotta pay to play crowd" use the Samba as a place to buy and sell parts and pay the voluntary membership fees?
I wonder how many of the "you gotta pay" crowd use it to search for and sell cars without paying?
In other words, I can bet you that there are several people here who are "bumming" off the rest of us Samba members who pay, but I could care less. I value the huge classifieds section from which I have profited by selling parts and have profited by locating hard to find parts. Without its free classifieds we would all be relegated to the Stone Age of auto restoration having to go to event swap meets in hopes of finding a part we need because the Registry classifieds is highly unlikely to offer up what we need.
For example, say you are a VW guy who came across a 356 part and you want to sell it. Let say you value the part at $50, are you going to pay a $35 mandatory fee to list a $50 part? It seems to me that the 356 community is basically free loading off the Samba as a venue to buy and sell parts by imposing this ridiculous policy. Part of the services a car club should provide is a venue to find and sell parts and in that regard the Registry fails miserably. |
It's interesting they talk about 'free' and 'entitlement' yet they probably use the samba more than they would like to admit! Kudos to Ev!
And Dan, I don't think anyone will address your post. Like they don't address anything that makes sense.
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Glenn
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Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 55664
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
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jjjjack
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Joined: August 08, 2005
Posts: 395
Location: Gainesville, FL
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| dawerks wrote: | | And Dan, I don't think anyone will address your post. Like they don't address anything that makes sense. |
Still waiting on CJ to answer my questions from a couple of days ago, LOL.
jjjjack (Jack Stenner)
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dawerks
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Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1613
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: | | While the Samba is "technically" free, everyone is welcome to show some love if they care to: donate or become a Premium Member and get a gold star. |
Just became a Premium member. Thank you! And thanks to Ev!
Again, it's NOT the money. It's the principle. I wouldn't give .02 the 356 Registry.
Also, that happened INSTANTLY. I paypal'd, clicked refresh and ta da, DONE. How long to become a registered member on the 356 Registry? Is there a special handshake I have to know? Is there a vetting process??
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 55664
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| dawerks wrote: | | Just became a Premium member. Thank you! And thanks to Ev! |
Thanks you.
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malibubill
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Joined: May 03, 2012
Posts: 147
Location: Stylish Beach House in Baja Oxnard
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: | In defense of the $280,000 statement, I bet the 8000 is overstated, that the majority of the membership dues pays for the very high quality magazine and postage. Personally they should have a option for digital delivery, even if it's the same price. It would be a real cost savings for them and save me bookshelf space if it was in .pdf form.
I wonder if they publish a yearly financial statement, after all they are a not for profit organization. I'd like to see exactly what my dues are paying for. |
The registry does publish annual financial statements. Also, its tax returns are public record. There is a web site called Guide Star which can be joined for free where you you can search for the Form 990 (the income tax form for non-profits). The most recent available for the Registry is for 9/1/2009 to 8/31/2010. The Registry collected $280,000 in dues that year. It collected something less than $54,000 in magazine advertising that year. It incorrectly attributed costs of a computer server and some software to "bank charges" that year but has not yet and probably won't amend its return since it pays no tax regardless. Here is the link: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/310/894/2010-310894018-06cfbaf0-ZO.pdf The 2010-2011 return has probably been filed (it was due February 15, 2012 BUT an automatic six (?) month extension is frequently obtained by it and similar organizations.
That year the registry spent at least $259,000 on the magazine according to the tax return and lost about $47,000.
The Trustys, once elected, have the right to do whatever they want once elected. They have generally chosen to do so. They will not show members (or even fellow Trustys) the books, which are kept by hand on columnar pads.
The registry usually publishes an unaudited annual financial statement in the magazine. I have not seen the one for 2010-2011 but that may be because I ignored it or possibly because I did not review my magazine stash before posting here.
Bill Sampson |
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Suboval
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2003
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| malibubill wrote: | | Glenn wrote: | In defense of the $280,000 statement, I bet the 8000 is overstated, that the majority of the membership dues pays for the very high quality magazine and postage. Personally they should have a option for digital delivery, even if it's the same price. It would be a real cost savings for them and save me bookshelf space if it was in .pdf form.
I wonder if they publish a yearly financial statement, after all they are a not for profit organization. I'd like to see exactly what my dues are paying for. |
The registry does publish annual financial statements. Also, its tax returns are public record. There is a web site called Guide Star which can be joined for free where you you can search for the Form 990 (the income tax form for non-profits). The most recent available for the Registry is for 9/1/2009 to 8/31/2010. The Registry collected $280,000 in dues that year. It collected something less than $54,000 in magazine advertising that year. It incorrectly attributed costs of a computer server and some software to "bank charges" that year but has not yet and probably won't amend its return since it pays no tax regardless. Here is the link: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2010/310/894/2010-310894018-06cfbaf0-ZO.pdf The 2010-2011 return has probably been filed (it was due February 15, 2012 BUT an automatic six (?) month extension is frequently obtained by it and similar organizations.
That year the registry spent at least $259,000 on the magazine according to the tax return and lost about $47,000.
The Trustys, once elected, have the right to do whatever they want once elected. They have generally chosen to do so. They will not show members (or even fellow Trustys) the books, which are kept by hand on columnar pads.
The registry usually publishes an unaudited annual financial statement in the magazine. I have not seen the one for 2010-2011 but that may be because I ignored it or possibly because I did not review my magazine stash before posting here.
Bill Sampson |
What's the breakdown for the $20,000 for "Holiday, events, meetings"?
And the nearly $11,000 for "Board expenses"?
How much FAT could and should be trimmed off of these two line items for the betterment of the 356 Registry?
Will they change Form 990, Page 2, Part III, Statement of Program Service Accomplishments?
"... and 356Talk electronic discussion list for the exchange of ideas, experiences and information enabling all to share the 356 experiences..."
To something more like - "enabling all that PAID to share"?
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BryanM
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2002
Posts: 4192
Location: Concord/Charlotte NC
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jennepher wrote: | | EverettB wrote: | | If anyone wants to email me scans of a Porsche owner's manual they have, I can add them to the site. |
Brochures for the literature section too. I love to add content. |
A "Porsche 356 Literature/advertising" should be formed
here is a start, I'll scan the rest of the article when I get a chance
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 41909
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!!
| dawerks wrote: | | Glenn wrote: | | While the Samba is "technically" free, everyone is welcome to show some love if they care to: donate or become a Premium Member and get a gold star. |
Just became a Premium member. Thank you! And thanks to Ev!
Again, it's NOT the money. It's the principle. I wouldn't give .02 the 356 Registry.
Also, that happened INSTANTLY. I paypal'd, clicked refresh and ta da, DONE. How long to become a registered member on the 356 Registry? Is there a special handshake I have to know? Is there a vetting process?? |
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How to: Post Photos | Search
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My VWs | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints" |
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malibubill
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2012
Posts: 147
Location: Stylish Beach House in Baja Oxnard
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Suboval wrote: | What's the breakdown for the $20,000 for "Holiday, events, meetings"?
And the nearly $11,000 for "Board expenses"?
How much FAT could and should be trimmed off of these two line items for the betterment of the 356 Registry?
Will they change Form 990, Page 2, Part III, Statement of Program Service Accomplishments?
"... and 356Talk electronic discussion list for the exchange of ideas, experiences and information enabling all to share the 356 experiences..."
To something more like - "enabling all that PAID to share"? |
I asked the exact questions about the $20,000 and the nearly $11,000. Simply put I was stonewalled by the trustys although one did want open books/minutes. Very little accurate or useful information was ever obtained. Below is the best I could ascertain without actually being permitted to see the books.
The $20,000 is allegedly for assisting the local guys with the holidays although I could not verify (nor deny) that when I tried. The $11,000 is so that the elected Trustys and the appointed officers, Gordon Maltby, Karen Campbell, Fred Nielsen for example, can personally attend two board meetings per year. Expenses including airfare, car rental, dinner and drinks, other meals and beverages, hotel are paid for each. The expense reimbursements per trusty/officer are not shown at all on the tax return and are not made available to members regardless.
Bill Sampson |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 5158
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| dawerks wrote: | Almost all of the 356 back issues are available (free!) if you order something from some of the 356 vendors. I have 2 sets of these 9 CD collections. Plus, I bought a grip load of Registry mags on ebay for about .40cents delivered.
It's sad to cross post from that other thread, but I think it's relevant here... Dan Epperly (Braukuche) drops the big bomb!! The gorilla in the room has been revealed, thank you!
| Quote: | There is plenty of talent, and you can't beat the advice, but the classifieds suck.
Over on the Samba, a primarily VW site, there are currently 2,700 356 parts ads, on this site, a little over 200. I have to wonder how many of the "you gotta pay to play crowd" use the Samba as a place to buy and sell parts and pay the voluntary membership fees?
I wonder how many of the "you gotta pay" crowd use it to search for and sell cars without paying?
In other words, I can bet you that there are several people here who are "bumming" off the rest of us Samba members who pay, but I could care less. I value the huge classifieds section from which I have profited by selling parts and have profited by locating hard to find parts. Without its free classifieds we would all be relegated to the Stone Age of auto restoration having to go to event swap meets in hopes of finding a part we need because the Registry classifieds is highly unlikely to offer up what we need.
For example, say you are a VW guy who came across a 356 part and you want to sell it. Let say you value the part at $50, are you going to pay a $35 mandatory fee to list a $50 part? It seems to me that the 356 community is basically free loading off the Samba as a venue to buy and sell parts by imposing this ridiculous policy. Part of the services a car club should provide is a venue to find and sell parts and in that regard the Registry fails miserably. |
It's interesting they talk about 'free' and 'entitlement' yet they probably use the samba more than they would like to admit! Kudos to Ev!
And Dan, I don't think anyone will address your post. Like they don't address anything that makes sense. |
They don't want a little thing like facts to get in the way.
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My retirement plan:
1958 PG/SG Standard
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 crusty double cab
1960 convertible bug
1962 So-22 Mosaic Westfalia
1963 356 B coupe runner
1963 356 B coupe in pieces
1965 standard sunroof bus
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Brian Mathe
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 124
Location: St. Augustine Fl
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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here is a copy of the 2010 breakdown of expenses. Sorry about some being sideways, they don't show that way on my mac, but download to thesamba that way?
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 41909
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:01 am Post subject: |
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These 2 jump out at me:
Advertising revenue - $53549
Advertising costs - Agent fee = $15136
They are paying someone to sell ads in the magazine?
Also:
Bank charges - $20,042
I'm curious - What is this?
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