Joined: May 07, 2012 Posts: 10 Location: Minneapolis
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: 74 Thing questions
Hey y'all, new guy with some questions. My friend just got this 74 Thing 2 days ago. Pretty cool Thing, its my first experience with old VWs and air cooled. He said the the car drives fine but it seems like it vapor locks on him after about 45 minutes of driving. He waits a while and it starts and goes another 45 minutes. I've been reading here and it seems that vapor lock is a pretty common problem and most have went to an electric pump, still the way to go? Also read about removing the gas cap when its locked up to check pressure. I see that moving the gas line away from the intake/head and exhaust was another major key. The car has a few other problems that I was hoping you could help me with. The previous owner did plugs and wires recently but said it needs to be timed correctly, what is timing supposed to be at? I've driven it a couple times and noticed that the headlights dont work, the Thing pulls to the left pretty hard when braking and the radio doesnt work. Well, thanks for any help, here's some pictures.
Here is a wire thats hanging up by the headlight wiring.
looks like a tube is missing to connect the two. Is this the way the interior is heated? The gas line is resting on that exhaust/heater piece.
Exhaust(heater?) pieces I thought was out of place.
The orange rusted part below is cracked, not sure what this means but it looks important.
Thanks for any help, Sam
Joined: June 04, 2006 Posts: 537 Location: Philo, Ca.
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject:
the fuel filter looks dirty and i believe the lose wires are a ground. worry about the heater later. adjust the brakes? _________________ "I haven't seen one of those since I was shootin' at 'em!"
Joined: April 30, 2012 Posts: 112 Location: Washington state
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject:
Never had a VW vaporous lock in 42 years of ownership.your gas tank probably has rust in it that is clogging your filter, then letting gas through again.running it like that will clog your carb soon resulting in a total carb rebuilt or replacement.if you don't believe me, pull your fuel sender and look in the tank with a flashlite.You will see what I am talking about.
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2613 Location: HELL Paso, TX
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:40 pm Post subject:
Brown wires are generally ground. There's a ground connection (the male side) inside the trunk on the front part of the fenderwell.
Ignore the electic washer. That's a mod I did. Follow the green/red wire back to the ground tree.
You're missing the fresh air hoses from the fan shroud to the heat exchangers. Basically a foil paper tube.
Your missing the heat exchanger to body tube as well. (Item 29)
_________________ 74 VW Thing - Walküre
78 GMC Motorhome - Valhalla
"Patina" my ass, that's rust
Recovering Split Bus Addict
Washington State 181 (Thing) Registry - current tally: 58
World 181 Registry Map: http://www.zeemaps.com/394427 Gitm registared boys!
Officially, there are only 98 181s in the world
Last edited by Semper_Dad on Mon May 07, 2012 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: April 30, 2012 Posts: 112 Location: Washington state
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject:
Timing, all point ignition should be set at 7.5. Advance at factory idle spec and 16 thousands point gap. Get your dirty fuel problem solved, set to the above specs and it will run great.
Timing, all point ignition should be set at 7.5. Advance at factory idle spec and 16 thousands point gap. Get your dirty fuel problem solved, set to the above specs and it will run great.
He has what looks to be an 009 so the timing should be set at full mechanical advance, 28-30° BTDC @ 3500+ rpm.
There is no one spec for point style ignition systems, Things came with several different dizzies each with its own specs, plus there are aftermarket ones like the 009's which have many variants.
Don't like the look of the crack in your last picture. How about some additional shots of it.
Joined: January 12, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: Alameda, CA
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: 74 Thing questions
Decent car, a few little bits here and there and it should run like a top.
csbuckn wrote:
the Thing pulls to the left pretty hard when braking
Front brake line is clogged, front brake not adjusted or one of the front brakes simply isn't working. If it pulls hard one way then the other, it's probably a plugged brake line (the fluid eventually gets through and grabs the brakes). The brake master cylinder has two circuits, one for the rear and one for the front. The fronts exit two different holes on the master cylinder, have a steel line that goes to a flex line as it enters the wheel well. Often, the old flex line swells and cuts off the flow through it causing a bad pull (pulls away from the problem). These flex lines are cheap to replace, and higher quality steel braided lines (to prevent swelling when the brakes are applied) are not very expensive either. Make sure you order the proper length (slightly longer than a bug). These old drum brakes need to be adjusted every couple thousand miles to keep the distance between the shoe and the drum as tight as possible - usually best to adjust and bleed the brakes at the same time.
csbuckn wrote:
Nice looking top. Frame looks strait and top is pretty darned new.
csbuckn wrote:
That barely readable warning light nearest the glove box is a brake warning light. If one of the brake circuits pressurizes but not the other, that light is supposed to light. It's also supposed to light when you turn the key but before you start the engine to let you know the light itself is functional.
csbuckn wrote:
There's a black hose exiting right next to the oil fill that isn't stock. It's the case breather allowing the oil to expand and blow-by to be dealt with - oil fumes (and sometimes mist) will exit that under pressure and would normally be sucked back into the oil bath air filter (the big canister on the right of the engine). Unfortunately, this oil bath air filter is missing one of the parts where that hose should be attached. I can't quite tell from the picture where the hose is going now, but there might be an oily mess wherever it stops. There's a metal something at the top of the engine compartment on the left-hand side that I don't recognize - maybe that's where they rigged the tube? Not sure.
csbuckn wrote:
Here is a wire thats hanging up by the headlight wiring.
You've found the ground for the headlights, and the reason why the headlights don't function!
csbuckn wrote:
Is this the way the interior is heated?
On the '74 Thing, the air to heat the cabin starts in the engine compartment - those duct-taped holes, travels through (missing) tubes through the rear (rear of car) engine tin (the tin you have there is wrong - missing those holes) and through heat exchangers connected to the exhaust pipes. From there it flows into the body and eventually up to the dash board (I own a '73, so not much of an expert at all that).
csbuckn wrote:
If I'm seeing that right, the run for the throttle cable is wrong. In the picture, it looks like it's exiting the frame horn beneath the inner CV joint at one of the normally-sealed expansion joints, then going up at a heavy angle to probably pass through the doghouse fan shroud. If that's the case, there's a good chance it'll fail prematurely as it eats through that tube. I think I see a dusty throttle cable in the background here. Something to keep an eye on.
csbuckn wrote:
The orange rusted part below is cracked, not sure what this means but it looks important.
I think that's the bottom of the rear torsion housing. It's a large tube integral to the body that houses a steel bar that acts as the rear spring for the suspension. The cap there with two bolts showing holds the rear spring plate in position, which in turn holds up the rear wheels (ok, pushes the wheels down, holds the car up, whichever). It's under a great deal of compression so don't go removing those bolts without knowing what you're doing. That said, it seems off somehow - I don't think that's the proper spring plate cover for the Thing, maybe it was modified somehow? Could you post another picture from about a foot farther away so we can see what else is going on around it. It is a cause for concern - don't go on any long road trips or 4 wheeling until it's sorted.
Joined: January 12, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: Alameda, CA
Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject:
Oh, and that's a bug exhaust on there, which is why the pipes don't exit the holes in the bumper, why they extend out so far, and why it probably makes the classic "fweeeem" sound of a bug. _________________ VW-181 shirts and stickers. http://ian.epperson.com/vw
Good looking Thing with some PO crap to straighten out!
The metal thing at the upper rear of the engine bay that Ian mentioned appears to be an external oil filter housing(sans filter/lines).. I'd guess there was a bigger engine in there at some point and it was swapped for that one before the sale.
Everyone else has covered it all quite well!!
Have fun!!! _________________ FORWARD: forward is only a good thing, when you're facing the right direction!
Joined: August 03, 2009 Posts: 485 Location: the Hills of Western Maine
Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:57 am Post subject:
Semper Dad,
is that a bikini top? if so, do you have more pics of it?
Semper_Dad wrote:
Brown wires are generally ground. There's a ground connection (the male side) inside the trunk on the front part of the fenderwell.
Ignore the electic washer. That's a mod I did. Follow the green/red wire back to the ground tree.
You're missing the fresh air hoses from the fan shroud to the heat exchangers. Basically a foil paper tube.
Your missing the heat exchanger to body tube as well. (Item 29)
Joined: September 16, 2007 Posts: 522 Location: California
Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:13 am Post subject:
The "vapor lock" could be carb ice. The heated air part of the air cleaner is missing. It is also could be that the heat riser part of the intake manifold is plugged with carbon.
I bet you do not have vapor lock but instead it is the vent for the gas tank that is plugged. The best way to check it to remove the gas cap when your car stops and if you hear a swoosh sound then it is the vent tubing plugged or rusted shut somewhere. As other stated it is a good idea to check the gas tank for debris-run the tank 1/2 way down or so and pull the sender and look in with a flashlight and if there is debris you will have to pull the tank and dump it out.
Hopefully the headlight is just the ground-put on a spaded connector and ground it and you will find out.
If the brakes are pulling it could be they just need an adjustment on the drums or like it was mentioned you may need to replace the rubber fuel lines. Regardless it is probably a good idea to flush the brake fluid.
The heater boxes are missing the tubes from the heat exchanger to the body-in addition you probably have a different rear engine tin without the fresh air hoses. You will need that and the fresh air hoses as well and the pipe stove elbow that goes to the air cleaner. Also it looks like your heater boxes are not hooked up to the heater cables. You may want to replace your engine seal too since it appears that it is starting to deteriorate from the underneath photo. It looks like the accelerator cable is missing the tube as well.
Joined: May 07, 2012 Posts: 10 Location: Minneapolis
Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject:
Thanks again for all the replies. The whole fuel system looks old, probably have to replace most of the lines. Here's the lines up front. I'll have to look into the tank, also.
As for the loose female spaded wire up front, I grounded it and the headlights did not turn on, I'll have to look at the wires again.
Wire bundle in the back: Do the headlight wires come back here first before they go up front?
Without the fresh air hoses, will it be hotter in the engine bay? I see no holes for them to go down into, would I have to get new tins or can I cut holes?
Dont think I'm gonna mess with timing, I dont have the tools to do it properly. It runs great that I can tell, starts up real quick and idles good from the get go.
The crack in the last picture does seem to be what us unfamiliar people would call the subframe. Another picture. Wondering what I should tell the owner who just bought it and drove/towed it to my house. I can weld if needed.
The throttle cable looking thing you see in the pic below is not hooked up to anything, its tight like its hooked up but stops right at that point, looks like it might have been cut. Something simular on the other side. The e-brake is not hooked up, possibly from that?
For the brakes, I havent found the master cylinder yet but I will. I'll open the front brakes and see whats going on. Hopefully its just an adjustment, anything I should now before adjusting it? The brake warning light works fine and does not light when driving.
The bug exhaust...Does this have something to do with the tins in the engine bay?
One last thing, the rear wheels sit close to the front of the fender, is this normal?
All these replies, I think some of my questions were answered already but I'm not deleting this post, sorry. Some random pics, maybe doubles
91 octane needed?
How the car arrived
Bolt looks like it needs tightening.
Joined: January 12, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: Alameda, CA
Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject:
csbuckn wrote:
The whole fuel system looks old, probably have to replace most of the lines. Here's the lines up front. I'll have to look into the tank, also.
Those lines are not for delivering fuel to the engine, they are part of the vapor recovery system to recover fuel vapors and overflow (the black canister in the hood takes liquid fuel splashed out and lets it vaporize), then pipes the vapor down through that old brown hose to a metal line under the gas tank. That line runs over to the passenger side and tucks under the right-edge of the car and runs to the rear just inside the fender. From there it goes into a charcoal canister which holds the vapor until the engine runs. When the engine fires up, it blows air from the shroud through a 1/2" tube into the charcoal canister then back out into the oil bath air cleaner.
In this pic, you can see the tubes that used to hook up to the shroud and the air cleaner dangling behind the air cleaner. Maybe those were disconnected and the case breather line was hooked there instead?
Anyway, the fuel line for the engine exits the bottom of the gas tank, goes through a short rubber or braided hose and into a metal line that runs inside the center tunnel of the car.
csbuckn wrote:
As for the loose female spaded wire up front, I grounded it and the headlights did not turn on, I'll have to look at the wires again.
Wire bundle in the back: Do the headlight wires come back here first before they go up front?
Nope, that rats nest has all the wires for the tail lights/rear turn signals and backup lights.
csbuckn wrote:
Without the fresh air hoses, will it be hotter in the engine bay? I see no holes for them to go down into, would I have to get new tins or can I cut holes?
That proper tin is really cheap. If you had the proper tin and those holes weren't plugged, it would run much hotter. As it is, it's fine for heat - though you don't get to feel that heat in the passenger compartment
csbuckn wrote:
The crack in the last picture does seem to be what us unfamiliar people would call the subframe. Another picture. Wondering what I should tell the owner who just bought it and drove/towed it to my house. I can weld if needed.
That looks pretty bad. Also, that's the wrong spring plate setup - looks like it's from a bug maybe? It might be why the rear wheels are closer in than they should be. Changing it for the proper one is a pretty big job, but it's the same job as what you're going to have to do to get everything out of the way to weld that crack shut. Basically, you're going to have to dismantle almost the entire rear suspension to get there, take off the wheels, axles, remove the rear shocks, disconnect the rear trailing arms, carefully unbolt those bolts, use a floor jack to push up on those spring plates and use a crowbar to move them off the stops and slowly lower them (lots of tension, keep hands away, etc) mark their position (they can be reindexed) remove the end caps (spring plate covers) and bushings then the spring plate and the torsion bar underneath. NOW you can weld it without destroying anything.
Check on youtube for videos on how to reindex the rear spring plate - it's almost the same job. Once you have it all apart, you can put in the proper spring plates - you'll have to correct the rear track once you're done. This might be why they sold the car.
csbuckn wrote:
The throttle cable looking thing you see in the pic below is not hooked up to anything, its tight like its hooked up but stops right at that point, looks like it might have been cut. Something simular on the other side. The e-brake is not hooked up, possibly from that?
I'll bet it's an old cable setup for dual carbs. Crazy.
csbuckn wrote:
For the brakes, I havent found the master cylinder yet but I will. I'll open the front brakes and see whats going on. Hopefully its just an adjustment, anything I should now before adjusting it? The brake warning light works fine and does not light when driving.
Master cylinder is just forward of the brake pedal. If you were to take off the left-front wheel, you could see it.
For adjusting the drum brakes, look at the backing plate and you'll either see two rubber stoppers or two holes that used to hold rubber stoppers. Inside those holes are gear cogs that allow you to move the shoes closer or farther from the drums. Stick a long flat-head screwdriver in there and pry the cogs while watching how close the shoes are to the drums. They'll move slowly. If it doesn't move at all, you'll have to take the whole assembly apart to make 'em work again. Get them close as you can without hanging up the wheel when the brakes are released.
csbuckn wrote:
The bug exhaust...Does this have something to do with the tins in the engine bay?
Nope. Probably was the cheapest exhaust they could put on there.
csbuckn wrote:
One last thing, the rear wheels sit close to the front of the fender, is this normal?
When the car is lifted a bit (by reindexing the spring plates) the wheel does not sit center, and that stance looks a bit like it was raised. However, it looks excessive which is why I think you've got the wrong spring plates in there.
Also note that the rear fenders aren't stock. They look like the Thing Shop extra wide rear fenders for running wide tires. the front fenders look like they've been chopped away as well.
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 2613 Location: HELL Paso, TX
Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:04 pm Post subject:
Yarkle wrote:
Semper Dad,
is that a bikini top? if so, do you have more pics of it?
Semper_Dad wrote:
You're missing the fresh air hoses from the fan shroud to the heat exchangers. Basically a foil paper tube.
No, that's the regular soft top properly (sort of) rolled up and sitting on the frame. I think I took this picture the day I bought my Thing around two years ago. I can roll it a bit better now. _________________ 74 VW Thing - Walküre
78 GMC Motorhome - Valhalla
"Patina" my ass, that's rust
Recovering Split Bus Addict
Washington State 181 (Thing) Registry - current tally: 58
World 181 Registry Map: http://www.zeemaps.com/394427 Gitm registared boys!
Officially, there are only 98 181s in the world
Joined: January 12, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: Alameda, CA
Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject:
Here's a video of a guy reindexing the rear torsion on a bus. Basically, you need to do this job but just slide the spring plate all the way off and carefully remove the torsion bar behind it.
On a Thing, the rear axle housing and trailing arm are one piece, not two like shown in this video. Also that spring plate torsion tool has no place to fit on a Thing body, so you've either got to make something to work or just use a really good floor jack. _________________ VW-181 shirts and stickers. http://ian.epperson.com/vw
Joined: January 12, 2005 Posts: 2252 Location: Alameda, CA
Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject:
csbuckn wrote:
Bolt looks like it needs tightening.
Not quite. That's supposed to be a rubber bushing between the body and the suspension - it's almost completely rotted away. They are cheap and fairly easy to replace - unbolt, slide the old crud out, use something to seperate the body and suspension (jack the body carefully), slip in the new one, bolt back on.
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