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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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 Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:17 pm Post subject: Steering box, Tie rod ends replaced, now won't turn as sharp |
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Replaced late steering box on '57 stock bug with another late steering box. Kept pittman arm the same. Replaced tie rod ends. Now, the wheels do not turn near as far. Furthermore, the inside turning wheel doesn't turn as far as the outside wheel. Turn it the other way and the same is true. The outside wheel turns further than the inside wheel. What happened?
The inside wheel should always turn at a greater angle than the outside but somehow it is not happening. Any ideas? Help  |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 3792
Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Did you have a wheel alignment done after changing the tie rod ends? The steering boxes will move the pitman arm way further than they can move once in the car so I wouldn't suspect the box. I think your toe in is out of adjustment.
brad
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BB Buggy 121.253mph @ Bonneville 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57hMyJmIU10
Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip cookies are the main reason I have trust issues |
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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: Adjust steering |
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| Will an allignment with proper toe-in increase and allow the wheels to turn farther? Appreciate the insight! |
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andk5591 
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Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 8987
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Adjust steering |
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| FrankRam wrote: |
| Will an allignment with proper toe-in increase and allow the wheels to turn farther? Appreciate the insight! |
yeah - if the toe is way out (as in wider in the front instead of narrower by 1/8"). You can set it yourself with a couple tape measures and some flat pieces of wood or metal. Theres lots of threads on home aligmnents already on here if you search.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1776.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard project at wife's request and your gonna die when you see this one. |
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Joey
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Joined: August 12, 2005
Posts: 3729
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Did you measure the lengths of the tie rods before you took them apart and re-assemble using those measurements?
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Joey
'56 Beetle
'65 Beetle
'74 Bus
'79 Panel
vintagevdubbers.ca
| johnnypan wrote: |
| US safety standards, a product of our government, created the fatchick out of the beetle. |
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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:31 am Post subject: hindsight |
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| That would have been the way but unfortunately, of course, not. Would the angle the steering box is attached to the beam make a difference as well? |
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Joey
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Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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You need to find the center position of the steering box then adjust each tie rod so the wheels are going straight and then adjust the toe in.
Here's a good read on 'do it yourself' alignment...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=315644[url]
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Joey
'56 Beetle
'65 Beetle
'74 Bus
'79 Panel
vintagevdubbers.ca
| johnnypan wrote: |
| US safety standards, a product of our government, created the fatchick out of the beetle. |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 3792
Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: hindsight |
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| FrankRam wrote: |
| That would have been the way but unfortunately, of course, not. Would the angle the steering box is attached to the beam make a difference as well? |
It won't make a difference on the travel of the arm. Make sure your pitman arm is 90* to the beam when you do your initial toe setting.
brad
_________________
BB Buggy 121.253mph @ Bonneville 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57hMyJmIU10
Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip cookies are the main reason I have trust issues |
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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: pittman angle |
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Right now the pittman arm is angled up about 10-15 degrees from box towards rear. Nowhere near the 90 degress from beam. Is this what's throwing me off and loosing some turn? (was never much good at geometry).
Thanks |
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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: Toe- In |
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| Will definitely check the Toe In --Thanx |
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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: too much Toe |
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| Well, using an ordinary tape measure, accross the front of the tires it measures 45 1/2 inches. Measuring accross the back of the tires it's 47 1/2 inches ! Talk about too much Toe - In. Will an allignment alone fix this? |
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slalombuggy
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Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, I should have said that the pitman arm should be 90* to the length of the beam on the horizontal axis. This will make sure the box is centered internally. To make sure you have the correct vertical angle simply attach your steering shaft to the coupler and center the shaft in the steering column tube and make sure the shaft and input shaft on the steering box are in line. You can cheat it a bitup and down for clearance on the long tierod if needed but it should be as close to inline as possible.
brad
_________________
BB Buggy 121.253mph @ Bonneville 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57hMyJmIU10
Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip cookies are the main reason I have trust issues |
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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Right. Thanks Brad. |
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andk5591
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Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 8987
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Toe is set 1/8" narrower in the front. I think and inch and change is definately gonna mess you up, plus it will drive really weird.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1776.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard project at wife's request and your gonna die when you see this one. |
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slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 3792
Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Yes simply setting the toe will fix your problem.
brad
_________________
BB Buggy 121.253mph @ Bonneville 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57hMyJmIU10
Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip cookies are the main reason I have trust issues |
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FrankRam
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Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: tie rods |
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I appreciate the help and the links. The string method and the stick with cards are ingenius. One last question - Any trick or simple advice on adjusting those tie-rods mechanically?
Thanks again. |
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66brm
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Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 2537
Location: Perth Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Use a pipe wrench or vice grips to rotate the centre tubes, as they are L/R threaded adjusting the length is a breeze, don't forget to retighten the clamps once the adjusting is done and reconfirm the toe adjustment once you have driven around the block as things will "settle"
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Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
| modok wrote: |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 3792
Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Before you get to carried away put some antiseize or grease on the threads of the tierods. this will really help now and in the future should you have to change any part or reset your toe. Do not use a pipe wrench. They did into the metal and weaken tierod. I have seen them bend at points where people have used this method to adjust and crushed the tube. If they are siezed up either try and get some heat on them and then lube them up or or soak them with WD-40. I have always been able to adjust mine with just a bare hand.
brad
_________________
BB Buggy 121.253mph @ Bonneville 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57hMyJmIU10
Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip cookies are the main reason I have trust issues |
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66brm
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Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 2537
Location: Perth Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Go to a wheel alignment place and see what tool is most often used to adjust the rods.......
_________________
Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval
| modok wrote: |
| I am an expert at fitting things in holes, been doing it a long time |
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 3792
Location: Canada 306
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| Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:38 am Post subject: |
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I know, I have a drawer full of the propper tools to do my wheel alignments with. I can use a 5lb sledge to adjust camber but it doesn't make it the tool for the job 
brad
_________________
BB Buggy 121.253mph @ Bonneville 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57hMyJmIU10
Raisin cookies that look like chocolate chip cookies are the main reason I have trust issues |
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