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vw_sp2 Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 20 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: Engine oil aditives: ZDDP aditive replacement...Help!! |
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Hi everybody!, I need some advice about oil additives for improving wear protection.
Here in Argentina, 10W30 oil is not sold...so I'm using 10W40 partially synthetic oil and, as I heve read in this forum, our aircooled engines need ZDDP to prevent wear.
The truth is that, again, oils with the correct ammount of ZDDP elements for VW aircooled engines, are not sold here... too sad, and I'm very angry about that.
So, here in my contry I can buy other type of oil additive, but my question is for the VW aircooled experts.... as I want to know if it's good to use it.
I refer to molybdenum sulfide (MoS2) aditives...like
LIQUI-MOLY:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/i...db=web.nsf
What I want to know, is if this type of additive will prevent engine wear in aircooled VW engines instead of using additional ZDDP aditives that aren't sold here.
Thanks in advance for all your help and advice.
Best regards from Argentina!
Andrés _________________ Andrés
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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There is no conclusive evidence that "emergency lubricants" serve a purpose beyond the break in period or for dry starts where the oil has no 'film strength' left. 10-40 needs to be changed sooner because the the additives that make it behave like a thicker oil break down. QuakerState has something called Defy which has extra zinc. A engine should be started and allowed to drive the moisture from the oil about every two weeks which also prevents a severe dry start which causes most of the wear on a crank. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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Alpha_Maverick Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011 Posts: 626
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Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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actually, a guy over on the chevelle forums tested a bunch of oils with and without the ZDDP additive, and found that the additive actually REDUCED the scuff protection. I have since sworn off any oil additives. Here's the link to his findings:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443674
If you want to know the best wear-protecting oils that he tested, here's a long explanation, followed by a slightly less-long list of oils:
http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
EDIT: just read his updated version, and apparently, the "oil extreme concentrate" actually does improve wear protection significantly. I may have to get some, as a backup to good oil. _________________
Alstrup wrote: |
hmm well, wiggly I like 5,5inchers in the rear at least. |
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vw_sp2 Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 20 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Many thanks guys for your recommendations.... great data!.
And what about SUPERKOTE 2000?, works as good as it promises?..
It is unfortunate that I can not get good oil types and brands. _________________ Andrés
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know the superkote product and a search throws up pages in Spanish. Sounds like it might be another treatment along the lines of liquimoly.
Moly addiditves are not the same as ZInc. Moly additives are designed to chemically combine with steel to form a hard, wear resistant surface. Zinc is actually a high pressure lubricant. Zinc is most important during run in and many have successfully switched to modern lubricants with lower zinc levels after run in. Recommended levels are in the range of 1200 to 1800ppm. While a bit lower might be OK, higher levels actually can be problematic and this is the trouble with additives - you need to know how much zinc is in your oil, then carefully measure the additive to get to the right level. During run in things tend to be running hotter at the relevant surfaces, and parts are actually wearing against each other, so a zinc level of 1000-1800 is still a good idea for at least the first 300 miles. After this you can use an oil with less zinc, but high anti-scuff properties - head on over for a long read on the oil sticky and you'll find an explanation of the codes to tell you, but most modern oils are actually pretty good. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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vw_sp2 Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 20 Location: Argentina
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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So, molibdenum is good for street aircooled engines when they're new?. Thanks _________________ Andrés
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Northof49 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013 Posts: 1759 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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You used to be able to buy STP, which was loaded with zinc. They advertised it as extending the life of camshafts, back when everything was flat tappet. Too much zinc and it would erode bearings. Now, I suspect most cams use roller followers???? _________________ 1958 Karmann Ghia owner |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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qakerstate deffy has zinc in it,$16 for jug at wally world.part synthetic blend. |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15299 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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mark tucker wrote: |
qakerstate deffy has zinc in it,$16 for jug at wally world.part synthetic blend. |
Tucker the guy lives in Argentina and probably doesn't have a Wally World. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26777 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Engine oil aditives: ZDDP aditive replacement...Help!! |
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vw_sp2 wrote: |
The truth is that, again, oils with the correct ammount of ZDDP elements for VW aircooled engines, are not sold here... too sad, and I'm very angry about that.
Andrés |
If you cannot buy the oil you want for cars, try looking at oils for other engines.
Examples of engines that are similar
-Cummins B and C series diesels (flat tappets)
-John Deere engines (flat tappets)
-Classic motorcycles, (example: harley davidson)
If all else fails then buy regular oil and just add a half quart of hypoid gear oil. (oil for gears and differentials) |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:50 am Post subject: |
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You may not have a problem, as the API with rates US oil and makes the standards here in the US likely does not have jurisdiction in Argentina. it well could be the oil in Argentina never lost the ZDDP. Check with your national standards organization to see what you have.
A good heavy duty truck oil is one source for high ZDDP oil in the US. If your oil is indeed lacking in zddp, see what your local diesel truck oil is like.
Generally here in the US the heavy wieghted oils have enough ZDDP in them, only the lighter oils have a greatly reduced ZDDP level. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bugguy076 Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007 Posts: 1068 Location: Dover, PA.
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:29 am Post subject: |
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I agree with using STP in air cooled VW's. I have used it for over 30 years in street and racing VW engines and had no oil related problems.
I use half a pint per oil change in a stock engine. Add a little more if using a deep sump on the engine. |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8501 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:47 am Post subject: |
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bugguy076 wrote: |
I agree with using STP in air cooled VW's. I have used it for over 30 years in street and racing VW engines and had no oil related problems.
I use half a pint per oil change in a stock engine. Add a little more if using a deep sump on the engine. |
STP red was the one to use to get the correct zinc level. When the formulation changed for regular oils the STP red was taken off the market. The blue has some zinc but not enough. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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What you need is an oil spec sheet for what a VW requires as far as zinc, phosphorus, etc. And I am sure that someone on here has that. Then search your available oils to find some that have the correct additives. Its very possible that you may not have a problem with many of your oils, particularly ones for diesel applications.
And I would change the title of your post to something like "What are good ACVW oils in Argentina?" This way you wont have folks suggesting that you go to a USA retailer that you may not have there. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: Use additives sparingly |
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Oil additives won't stay suspended and build up as sludge on an engine case/oil pan. I used to use stp or lucus until I discovered a 3/4" layer of sludge in the bottom of my engine that was very close to blocking of the pickup screen. I don't play 'home chemist' like I used to. There are a lot of flat tappet engines on the road that do not develop problems. I guess no one bothered to tell the engines in these cars, jeep 4.0s for instance. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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spectre6000 Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2009 Posts: 2014 Location: Broomfield, CO
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Alpha_Maverick wrote: |
actually, a guy over on the chevelle forums tested a bunch of oils with and without the ZDDP additive, and found that the additive actually REDUCED the scuff protection. I have since sworn off any oil additives. Here's the link to his findings:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443674
If you want to know the best wear-protecting oils that he tested, here's a long explanation, followed by a slightly less-long list of oils:
http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
EDIT: just read his updated version, and apparently, the "oil extreme concentrate" actually does improve wear protection significantly. I may have to get some, as a backup to good oil. |
FANTASTIC!!!! Thank you for sharing this! _________________ Jason Hopper
-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me |
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SRP1 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 4340
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Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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^^^ thats actually some good info above. I too own a bearing wear/oil film strength test machine and I'll tell you guys first hand oils are not what you think they are, on many levels. I have found many of the same findings as in the links above. Also there are many ways you screw up an engine playing with zinc, thats some corrosive shit, and to much will hurt an engine as much as the right amount can help it. So heed causion if youre going to play with zinc.
Pop quiz qustion of the day, how much synthetic oil is in a synthetic blend oil? |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15299 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:40 am Post subject: |
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SRP1 wrote: |
Pop quiz qustion of the day, how much synthetic oil is in a synthetic blend oil? |
Not very much. Probably as little as 10%. "Synthetic" oil is mostly a big marketing scam. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Todd66 Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2012 Posts: 461 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I agree synthetic blend is a mostly a marketing ploy. Pure synthetic has value. Ford's line of ecoboost engines are flat tappet buckets as I am sure other manufacturers are. They survive without added zinc etc. |
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