1974 412-the adventure begins-couple electrical question

[gt2av8]

Hey all!

So, did a bit of an archaeological dig and now have a '74 412 project. I may post pictures, if it's interesting to you all.

So, I'm going over the various systems and really am actually quite impressed with the conditions. it does have some rust issues, but that I already knew. It will be the largest matter of the restoration.

It has been sitting for about 30 years... waiting. So, in going over it, here are a couple of questions. I don't yet have a repair manual, but should in the next week or so. All electrical is very well intact.
- Fuel pump works fine (per test), but electricity is not getting to it. I'm thinking it's likely a relay matter. So, location of relay(s) affecting the fuel pump?
- Starter isn't cranking and I'm finding the same issue. Power is not coming from the switch side of it (is from the large wire). I know the '74 has the seat belt matter and am wondering if it's an issue with that system (likely a relay, as well). So, location of relays in the starting system and seat belt system?

There is some plan to document the progress as we go. Would you all like posts here and there on it? I'm pretty excited about it. I do have a good bit of Volksy background, but all in bugs and older buses. The 412 my dad bought new and stopped driving around '84 because he just didn't need it (no good reason really). Its condition was very good. It has about 89k on it. With the intricacies of its systems, it's REALLY nice that everything is so well intact and hasn't been "repaired" over the years.

Anyway, thanks for any answers and I look forward to sharing it with you all! =D

[andersonj]

Hi,

congrats on the your new/old 412. some pics of the ride would be welcome.

I know the fuel pump relay is located under the dashboard on the passenger side near the fuse box, when the key is turned to start you should hear a clicking sound if not you could measure the voltage to test if its live.

For the starter it might be the cable is damaged somewhere along the line from rats mice or what not not to sure.

But maybe its all a simple thing like a fuse, not sure if you've checked that already.

Good luck

[raygreenwood]

Its hard to say. There are a few slightly different locations depending on where the vehicle was delivered and built. As noted...look under the dash. On most US versions the relay is situated just upward from the brake pedal on the pedal cluster.

Also there is a long starter energizer wire that plugs into the starter that gets pulled loose as the cable cover shrinks. Without that connected, everything acts normally...fuel pump will buzz, light come on in the instrument...but starter will not crank.

Also...USA spec vehicles had a seat belt interlock ignition disable system. If there is an accordion wire cord with a two prong plug under each of the front seats...simply fasten your seat belt (whether you are wearing it or not)...and the car will start. Also if your car is an automatic...make sure that the shifter is pushed all the way forward in park. It that does not work you may be able to start in neutral. If all else fails...pull the cover off the shifter area and clean teh white plastic switch inside. RAy

[Mike Fisher]

Keep your questions/pictures etc in 1 build thread. It makes it easier for us know the whole story/year/condition/previous questions. Don't let a VW get you too frustrated with it!
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[gt2av8]

Thanks for the replies. No frustrations yet. I'm still at that point of getting to know it (figuring out what's working/not/etc.), so really anything that DOES work is kind of a bonus.

I'll dig around under the dash soon. I did test for power to the pump and there was nothing, but when I hard wired it (just to test and see if the pump itself runs) it ran. A funny little side note is 3 mystery wires under the driver's seat of which appear to connect to the batt terminals. When I hooked the one that clearly goes to positive up, I could hear a relay under the dash click on and off with the ignition switch. I can't say whether it's to do with the fuel pump, but maybe (though that seems a somewhat odd wiring), though I suspect it's something else. I've paged through older posts and I saw that someone had asked about the same 3 wires. The replies were that it was apparently for some sort of battery diagnostics.

As far as the starter goes, yeah, I think it's likely tied up in a bad relay for the seat belt system. Believe it or not, even after 30 years of sitting, the wiring is all very intact (including the switched wires to the solenoid). I did "hot wire" that just to test and got nothing more than a few clicks and then lights out. Soo, I'm leaving that alone for now until I diagnose the path back to it. I suspect the solenoid may be stuck, as well - wouldn't be much of a surprise. I may take the starter off and try to free it up separately (few hammer whacks).

A few good things. Once I have a repair manual that should help with locating some things. In two weeks I'm trailering it to an actual shop where it will live as I work on it. The good is it (and I) being out of the weather. The bad is it's about 2.5 hours away. So, it'll be a 2 weekend/month sort of deal.

I should have said. It's a '74 412 fastback. So, it's a manual. I have wondered if it has a neutral or a clutch switch in the starting line, but from internet research (and a quick look) it doesn't appear to. Also, it's the "chrome yellow."

Most of the pictures so far are on a friend's computer, which I'll upload this weekend, hopefully. I won't get to the car this weekend, but I am putting in some Volkswagen time on a friend's '66 bug.

Anyway, thanks much and pictures soon.

[raygreenwood]

Some notes....
Many of the 4 speed two door models did have a neutral safety switch. Its a single wire switch on the bottom side of the transmission on the tail cone housing...just forward of the rectangular cover plate.

The wires under the seat.....there is a red positive wire that must go to a flat spade terminal mounted to the bolt on the positive battery terminal. iIt should also have an insulating cover on the end. Without it...you will get no start. If memory serves...no fuel pump.

There is also a brown ground wire that goes to the spade terminal on the negative battery post. I cant remember what it goes to. Ill have to look.

The third wire should be yellow and red. That wire went to a battery water level indicator. Leave in disconnected. It goes to the diagnostic network plug.

Also under your seat is the accordion wire ...two pole...that goes to the seat belt safety switch. For the moment you can pull that plug lose and put a jumper wire between them in the female socket. That will insure that the car will start whether you have the seat belt buckled or not.

If you want to know what this system goes to....if you look at the female section of the seat belt bolted to the floor....you will notice that it has a shrink wrapping running down the bar from the top. You can see the two wires spiraling down underneath that jacketing.

Also look on the inner side of your bottom seat cushion near the emergency brake handle and under the piping you will find a zipper about 3" long. That zipper accesses the pressure switch that tells the system that someone is sitting in the seat. So it makes contact from your weight....and then....if the seat belt is not buckled...the two wires in the seat belt harness will disable your ignition.

One thing to Redeemer.......is that if you have tools or parts laying in the passenger seat...that total out to about 15-20 lbs......it will trigger the seat....and the car will not start.

When i got my first 411....it was maddening....a sack of groceries kept me from starting. Ray

[Lars S]

Welcome gt2av8!
there might be a thin brown wire under the drivers seat that is ment to hook to the negative battery terminal, this one is for the diagnosis socket in the engine bay.. Dont remember if there is a redish diagnosis wire for the positive terminal also but it might be. Neither of them has to be connected.

Longing for your 412 pics!

Lars S
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[raygreenwood]

[Lars S]

[raygreenwood]

Ah!...thank you for that lArs!....I had forgotten all about that thin red wire. I believe...but am not positive...I will have to look in my books...that the thin red wire went to the neutral safety switch....and as you note....on USA spec four speed models.

This caused me a problem at one point. Early on I had a two door 4 speed 411. It was purchased in the usa and shipped special order. It had this wire and its transmission had the switch. The car was wrecked and rusted and I bought it for parts.

The car I have now was bought by its original owner in germany. It has no thin red that I can find. No safety switch on its original transmission. Drove me crazy trying to figure out what I was missing. Ray

[gt2av8]

Thanks for all the replies! It's kind of nice knowing those three mystery wires. The thicker red one, I did notice when plugged in makes a relay click in the dash, though not sure which yet (that was last time I played with it which was before my last post). Anyway, I'm hoping that maybe I'll get a little time with it this weekend. As you'll see in the pictures, we moved it from where it has been sitting the past 30 years, but haven't moved it from the property yet. That is planned to happen soon. It's going to spend the winter in a friend's shop, which will be extremely helpful to working on it through the cold season.

Pictures are here (there are also pictures of other projects - page down for the 412): http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=gt2av8&show_results=summary[/url]

[19super73]

Chrome Yellow! Nice.
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1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
1984 Vanagon

[gt2av8]

Apparently they used a different starter in the manuals and automatics. From what I can see, it's just a higher torque starter, which seems like it should be fine. Anyone used that in a manual?

Thanks! I'm moving it to the shop just after Thanksgiving. Depending on the weather, I may not get much time in with it before then. So, there should be more info and pictures along after that.

[Mike Fisher]

Manual & Automatic Type 3's used different style starters, but they are interchangeable.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[racer-john]

If you have any further problems with you starter, check the 8/10 ga. wire running along side the tunnel for continuity.
When I couldn't start my 412 one day, I found the wire had corroded and separated. Paring some insulation off both ends and scraping off the corrosion, crimping on a yellow butt connector, and off I went.

[kgarchivinusa]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiringt4.php
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