Aux Battery - Weekender

[SoonerDave]

So..........

I searched and couldn't find exactly what I was looking for. Hope someone can help.

I have an 86 weekender. A couple of years ago I installed the GW aux kit and used the battery they suggested. However, now, the aux battery was clearly not working, as everything was dead or almost dead when ignition off.

Took off the batt cover on drivers side, I see that the battery is swollen.

I fear that I may have installed the GW kit incorrectly, but also I have heard and read so much about the GW kit that I want to simplify my system, and possibly install the Yandina instead.

Does anyone:
-Have thoughts on what causes my battery to swell?
-Have a diagram for using the aux battery to run house lights, stereo and the two power plugs from aux battery when ignition off, and using the Yandina to isolate/charge the aux battery?

Auto electrical shit gives me headaches and is not my strong suit. Any help or guidance is appreciated.

-David
_________________
-2018 Ford Transit Sportsmobile, 3.5 Ecoboost, mid-length, low roof with pop-top.
-1998 Toyota 4Runner everyday driver

FORMERLY:
-'86 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender original 2.1 Waterboxer - "Buster". Like the moe. song - Pig can fly!! Not named after it's tendency to have things on it bust.

[SoonerDave]

To be clear in the battery swell issue, I presume that the swell is from overcharging. I just don't know why it is overcharging - any ideas?
_________________
-2018 Ford Transit Sportsmobile, 3.5 Ecoboost, mid-length, low roof with pop-top.
-1998 Toyota 4Runner everyday driver

FORMERLY:
-'86 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender original 2.1 Waterboxer - "Buster". Like the moe. song - Pig can fly!! Not named after it's tendency to have things on it bust.

[thatvwbusguy]

Batteries can swell up for several reasons. The most common reason is due to overcharging, but internal faults like a dead short can also cause excessive heat that will make them swell and sometimes burst.

Since you are using the GW kit, it is very unlikely that you were overcharging the battery. If anything, the GW kit results in chronic undercharging of even the small 44Ah battery supplied in their kit.

Your best route forward would be to return all of the wiring to stock condition and remove the GW kit completely.

Hooking up the Yandina is simple. You will need to connect one of the red wires to the positive post on the starting battery and the other red wire to the positive post of the auxiliary battery.

The only remaining connection for the Yandina is to connect the black ground wire to a solid chassis ground. I like to use the threaded boss on the aisle side inside the drivers seat pedestal for this purpose. A short, fine thread 7/16" bolt fits into the threaded boss perfectly. I use a 1/2" ID ring terminal and an internal star washer to make a nice solid ground.

The safest way to run the wires is under the van from one battery box to the other fully covered in split loom. I usually drill an 11/16" hole in the bottom of each battery box and then install a rubber grommet with a 7/16" ID to allow the split loom to pass through. Be sure to treat any bare metal with some spray undercoating and let it dry before inserting the grommets to keep rust at bay.

Some people choose to run the wire for the Yandina inside the van, across the aisle between the seats. This also works fine as long as the wire is well protected and won't be stepped on constantly.

Since your van is an '86, you can do the Fuse #3 modification to power the interior lights, radio and the 12V socket on the dash. There is a description of the Fuse #3 modification on my site here: https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrela...iary-power
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[ThankYouJerry]

Doesn't the Blue Sea ACR have a slight advantage over the Yandina 100C? Wire size maybe?
_________________
1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD

[RBEmerson]

Overcharging comes from a hosed voltage regulator. A battery that's swollen is history. Either take the alternator to an automotive electrical shop or just replace the thing outright. Replace the battery - it's never going to get "all better".

The GW kit is simple. If you followed the instructions, there should be no worries. If the battery fails almost immediately, either you have an outrageously high load, failed battery, or it's not being charged.

Put a voltmeter across the battery with the engine running. Bump the engine speed up to about 2000 - 2500, and you should see at least 13.2V and as much as 14.8 - 14.8V with the engine at road speeds. If the battery drops to the mid-12's with the engine off, and no load on battery, you're probably OK. If you don't see much about 12V with the engine running, you're not charging. If the battery drops to 12.2 or lower without a load, and sitting for a few hours, the battery is history.

Yandina isn't going to help any of the above.
_________________
Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[nocreditnodebt]

While a fully charged battery will not freeze until temps reach well below zero, the same cannot be said for an undercharged battery, which can easily freeze, and expand the case.

In general, one cannot rely on the alternator to fully charge a depleted battery, unless driving for hundreds of miles. Utilizing the alternator as a charging source is wise, and pretty much a necessity, but expecting it to fully and correctly fully charge a given battery is not going to happen.

Add in low alternator voltages and the voltage drop in the circuitry and the thirsty battery is effectively trying to drink through a cocktail straw, with a kink in it.

One Pretty much requires a plug in charger , or solar, after an outing to get the battery to 100%.

When A battery sits for any time under 80% it is quickly losing capacity. The lower and the longer it sits there, the faster the capacity loss and this capacity loss is permanent. Though some claim that desulfating pulse chargers are effective in breaking up the hardened sulfate.

So returning it to 100% is very important for longevity.

[thatvwbusguy]

I don't think there was ever any expectation of trying to salvage the swollen battery, but in hindsight that is a point worth making. I guess I was taking for granted that the battery would automatically be replaced.

Last time I checked, the batteries that GW sells as part of the aux kit are generic clones based on the Werker 44Ah. I have received emails from wholesalers in mainland China selling these batteries in cases of 10pcs for $45.00ea, so the expectation of consistent quality control is dubious at best.

The Blue Seas 7610 ACR is my preferred battery combiner, but it is not really necessary for a small auxiliary battery system like the original poster is using. The Yandina Combiner 100 is a good unit for this application and will work well in this scenario using the integral 10AWG wire.

Adding a 120V smart charger to completely recharge the battery after a long weekend of camping is an excellent idea. Sizing the charger to be useful for quickly recharging the starting battery (in the even that parking lights are left on or something like that) makes it an even more worthwhile investment.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[RBEmerson]

It's true that the lower the state of charge, the more prone a battery is to freezing, but OP says nothing about freezing batteries.

The thing that causes swelling most often is overheating. Overheating is typically caused by excess voltage applied for an extended amount of time. The battery converts the excess to heat and... bulge.

Battery acceptance is a function of the state of charge. The closer a battery is to being fully charged, the less current it will accept. This is brought on by the battery itself, not by external devices. The later Westy alternator should be good for somewhere between 70 and 80A (output varies depending on the alternator temperature, among other factors). Discount loads from lights, fans, etc., and there's less power available to charge a battery. NTL, it's reasonable to expect a battery, particularly a small "house" battery, to be effectively charged in a few hours.

Chronic undercharging (never getting to or at least close to full charge) will damage a battery. The chemical reactions which provide electricity aren't fully reversed, the lead plates become increasingly contaminated with the products of discharge, and the battery loses capacity. In extreme cases, sulfates precipitate out of the electrolyte, fall to the bottom of the cell, and eventually are sufficient touch the bottoms of plates, shorting one to another. At that point the battery has failed and cannot be restored.

The above is, however, not a quick process. In fact, it may take a year or two to see the battery is just not going to come up to full capacity. And certainly the overall life expectancy can be significantly reduced. But this is nothing that will show up in a few weeks or months.

The process called "equalizing" puts sulfur back into the electrolyte and takes it from the plates and sediment accumulated at the bottom of battery cells. Equalizing is nothing more than applying a very high charging voltage (typically 15-16V) for two to four or five hours. However, the stock alternator is not capable of controlled equalizing. Use of an external regulator (which offers other benefits, too) or equalizing battery charger is needed. However, none of this is likely to appreciably fix the problem described. (Agreed that in-line pulsing "equalizers" are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.)

Again, check the charging voltage applied to the battery. If it's under 13.2V (a typical "float" or "trickle charge" voltage), particularly with a well discharged battery, the battery simply isn't being charged properly. The alternator output is inadequate (compare the voltage at the battery with the voltage at the alternator - if that voltage is low, either the drive belt is slipping or the alternator and regulator are failing - if it's more than a couple of tenths of a volt above the voltage at the battery, look for voltage drop due to poor connections or under-sized wire). If the voltage is in excess of 14.2 - 14.8V, the battery is being cooked by excess voltage. NTL, it should take at least some charge initially, until heating warps the plates, causing the battery to fail.

To figure out the health of battery, if load testing isn't possible, measure its idle state voltage. That is, disconnect the battery and then let it stand for several hours. If the voltage is somewhere around 12.5V, the battery is in good shape. Between 12.5 and 12.2V, the battery isn't well charged. See above re: chronic undercharging. If the voltage is anywhere below 12.2V, the battery is "flat" at best. If the battery is put on a charger. and then left to stand for several hours afterward, and it still shows 12.2V or less, the battery is history. Nothing will bring it back.

Until you have measured charging and idle state voltages, discussing changes (e.g., replacing the GW kit with any electronic battery combiner) is a waste of time. The remedy for undercharging is not the same as overcharging. If it's unclear as to what is happening, how can you hope to fix things?
_________________
Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[thatvwbusguy]

My Magic 8 Ball points to a short brought on by sulfation killing this battery due to chronic undercharging, as I suggested in my original reply. Since we can't be there to hook up a meter and the swollen battery can't safely have a charge applied to it, we are going to have to start with an educated guess and go from there.

The likelihood of an over-voltage problem being the cause of the failure seems fairly minimal based on a couple factors:

1) The GW auxiliary kit charges through a thin (12AWG?) wire connected to the thin 20+ year old stock wiring.

2) There is no indication that the starting battery has been similarly cooked via the main battery cable, which is certainly capable of passing a comparatively huge amount of current that would be at the same suggested high voltage.

The original poster is unsure of the correct installation of the GW kit at this point and wants to eliminate the complexity of the GW kit (wires cut and relocated at the rear of the fuse block etc) as a possible source of the problem. This sounds like very good logic to me.

I don't own stock in Yandina or Blue Seas, I only recommend them based on my years of good service from their products and a big thumbs up from a close friend that owns a marina and routinely installs their equipment in million dollar yachts.

In the past few years I have helped quite a few people (I would guess 25+ conservatively) convert from the GW solenoid based kit to an ACR for their auxiliary charging needs. So far I haven't had a single request asking how to swap from an ACR to the GW kit...
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[kbeefy]

Just throwing my .02 in here.

I have little experience in hot climates.
I have alot of experience in cold climates.
I've never had a battery swell from VR failure/overcharging.
I've had lots of batteries swell from freezing.
Theres a chart for what voltage batteries freeze at.

After freezing batteries can be nursed along for a bit, but usually they're done.
_________________
86 syncro CHC, NorthWesty subbie 2.5, decoupler, locker, custom interior, 225/75r16 Duratrack's on CLK's, Toyo cabin heater, ARB fridge, 300w Zamp Solar, Gowesty bumpers/skid/rails, Fiama awning

'86 Syncro Westy. Stock for now.

2000 F350 7.3 CC LB 11' Northland Cabover

2006 Subbie OBXT

2002 Tacoma DoubleCab 4x4

1969 Mustang Basket Case 351c/FMX/9

http://kbeefy.blogspot.com/

[RBEmerson]

I've seen a bank of batteries so hot from overcharging that the cases were on the verge of beginning to melt. The cause: a very cooked regulator on a 100A alternator.

I stand by all of my comments above.

However, since everyone seems to think they know it all far better than I possibly could, I'm out.
_________________
Lord, give me coffee to change the things I can change, and wine to accept the things I can't change.

[Yellow Rabbit]

The 86 weekenders came wih a factory second battery setup. Why the need for the GW installation?

[SoonerDave]

Thank you everyone for chipping in. This is all extremely, extremely helpful. I really appreciate the time you all took to respond!!!!

Also, as to why the need for a second battery setup - the PO did all sorts of weird things to this van. There was essentially nothing under the driver's seat when I got it but an old battery and a sock.
_________________
-2018 Ford Transit Sportsmobile, 3.5 Ecoboost, mid-length, low roof with pop-top.
-1998 Toyota 4Runner everyday driver

FORMERLY:
-'86 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender original 2.1 Waterboxer - "Buster". Like the moe. song - Pig can fly!! Not named after it's tendency to have things on it bust.

[thatvwbusguy]

You didn't mention the sock under the seat in your original post, that could totally change the troubleshooting process

If you don't have a set of the GoWesty instructions for removal/reverse engineering purposes, let me know. I should have a copy in my files somewhere that I can send you from a previous extraction experience.

Please be sure to post the results when you get everything sorted it out. The more data we have to work with, the more we can help the next person.

I stand by, on top of and inside all of my comments above.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[SoonerDave]

Funny, I emailed GW last week to see if they would send me the instructions because I don't have them in my box-o-Buster-docs. If you have them I would greatly appreciate it. And I will def post my progress and pics of same. Thank you. I will pm you my email address.
_________________
-2018 Ford Transit Sportsmobile, 3.5 Ecoboost, mid-length, low roof with pop-top.
-1998 Toyota 4Runner everyday driver

FORMERLY:
-'86 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender original 2.1 Waterboxer - "Buster". Like the moe. song - Pig can fly!! Not named after it's tendency to have things on it bust.

[SoonerDave]

Success today on this project. Thank you everyone - will post a follow up with details and pics after I get a chance, maybe tonight. Bottom line, I now have a hybrid GW/Yandina aux battery setup. Nothing burned down (yet), the accessories I need work, and I'm ready for camping again.
_________________
-2018 Ford Transit Sportsmobile, 3.5 Ecoboost, mid-length, low roof with pop-top.
-1998 Toyota 4Runner everyday driver

FORMERLY:
-'86 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender original 2.1 Waterboxer - "Buster". Like the moe. song - Pig can fly!! Not named after it's tendency to have things on it bust.

[SoonerDave]

So, posting my progress (and what may be a finished product??). I started with the GW kit, which I installed over the top of a very shady looking setup the PO had done. I put the GW kit in about two or three years ago. At this point, as of tonight, I have removed all of the circuit breaker and solenoid side of the GW kit. However, I left in the three wires (red, yellow and blue) that came with the GW kit and that I wired, per the GW instructions, into the fuse panel.

I put the Yandina in between the batteries, mounted under driver's seat. The Yandina is connected to the starter battery via the red wire that was formerly plugged into the center of the little silver box relay.

First, below is the pic of things almost as they appear at the end, albeit before I unmessied them a bit. In this pic you can see the Advance Auto Parts battery I found that fit in the space. 2 yrs ago I think I hacked out a metal spacer in this space, so now there is more room. The battery is juuuuuuust about right. Zoom in on label for model. It sits about 1/16 of an inch above the top of the space, but the black battery lid screws down on top of it nicely.

In pic below, the black tape covers a butt connector that has the Yandina lead wire at the bottom and at the top of the taped section you can see the connection of the wire that formerly went into the center plug of the relay, and which runs to the positive terminal of the starter battery. In told by Jay that this wire, if it's a touch smaller, may cause the Yandina to undercharge the aux battery, I haven't yet compared wire gauges.

Next, below is where things get maybe somewhat sketch. This is the positive terminal of the new aux battery. Lots of connections, I know. There's a subwoofer on there, for example. There's even a big red wire that was on the PO's setup but which I have no idea where it goes or what it does. But for present purposes, here's the part that is even sketchier. The red, blue and yellow wires that formerly attached to the GW solenoid and circuit breaker, ALL I DID WAS TAKE THOSE OFF OF THE GW KIT AND HARD WIRE THEM STRAIGHT ONTO THE POSITIVE TERMINAL OF THE AUX BATTERY. I did no other modifications and left the other ends of those wires where they were from my GW kit installation a couple of years ago. Kind of a "deep breath and where's the fire extinguisher" moment. Or maybe "stunt electrical work." Maybe it was stupid to try it this way, but it seems to work. If I'm doing something really stupid please tell me.

Below are the three wires from the GW kit that run from the aux battery and that I left in place under the dash.

And oh yeah, the green and blue smaller wires that came off the Yandina seemed to do nothing in my application, so I capped them and left them unconnected to anything.

So, thoughts? It seems to work. The green LED clicks on and off when it should, to indicate that it is working right. And the house lights outlets etc. run off the aux battery fine when ignition off. Nothing smoking or hot. First camping weekend would be the biggest test I guess

But if I have caused a big danger here or there is something stupid or easy that I could correct, please share.

Thank you, again, to all that helped so far.

-David
_________________
-2018 Ford Transit Sportsmobile, 3.5 Ecoboost, mid-length, low roof with pop-top.
-1998 Toyota 4Runner everyday driver

FORMERLY:
-'86 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender original 2.1 Waterboxer - "Buster". Like the moe. song - Pig can fly!! Not named after it's tendency to have things on it bust.

[kbeefy]

I don't know anything about the GW wires and kit, but I'd think about cleaning up the positive terminal. Get a fuse block and give all those wires their own circuit (and protection). Are most of them loads?
! charge wire direct to the pos, and one wire from there to a power distribution block mounted nearby. I like to have mine readily accessible for pulling or replacing fuses.
_________________
86 syncro CHC, NorthWesty subbie 2.5, decoupler, locker, custom interior, 225/75r16 Duratrack's on CLK's, Toyo cabin heater, ARB fridge, 300w Zamp Solar, Gowesty bumpers/skid/rails, Fiama awning

'86 Syncro Westy. Stock for now.

2000 F350 7.3 CC LB 11' Northland Cabover

2006 Subbie OBXT

2002 Tacoma DoubleCab 4x4

1969 Mustang Basket Case 351c/FMX/9

http://kbeefy.blogspot.com/

[SoonerDave]

I think that's great advice - I've seen some really clean fuse panel setups on here, but I don't know where I want to put it yet, I don't know if I want to install an inverter, and in the meantime I just wanted it to work. What power distribution block did you install?
_________________
-2018 Ford Transit Sportsmobile, 3.5 Ecoboost, mid-length, low roof with pop-top.
-1998 Toyota 4Runner everyday driver

FORMERLY:
-'86 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender original 2.1 Waterboxer - "Buster". Like the moe. song - Pig can fly!! Not named after it's tendency to have things on it bust.

[thatvwbusguy]

I am at work, so I can't see your photos right now (can't view any sort of social media hosting etc) but I can answer a couple questions.

The green wire on the Yandina is used to add a switch to enable a force combine feature. For automatic operation, you don't need it at all.

The blue wire limits charging voltage to 14.2V max regardless of what is coming out of the alternator. If you are using a regular lead acid battery you don't need this one either.

When I get home in the morning, I will check out the photos and let you know if anything looks obviously out of place.

In an ideal world, you want a circuit breaker or fuse located as close to the positive battery terminal on each battery as is reasonably possible. This helps to protect the wiring in the event that the wire gets damaged and makes contact to ground. As long as the wires are routed away from anything that is likely to disturb them (sharp or moving parts) you are probably safe for now.

Try to figure out where all of the wires on the auxiliary battery are going. I know it can be a serious pain in the ass to try to sort out someone else's wiring disaster, but it beats the heck out of having your van catch on fire or having to constantly replace batteries as they fail.

The fact that you have a subwoofer connected to the battery that could be drawing a lot of current, plus another big red wire (big wires usually carry lots of current) might mean that your battery could be getting drained way faster than it can recharge. This lead to an unhappy auxiliary battery, which then typically leads to unhappy van owner.

Just say no to the inverter combined with a small auxiliary battery. They are usually very inefficient and you can power most of the things you will want to use while you are camping via DC. Figure out what type of things you use most and I should be able to make some recommendations on the best way to keep them charged/powered.

Blue Sea Systems makes great fuse blocks. I am using the 12 circuit 5029 and have nothing but great things to say about it. Their stuff is not the cheapest, but it is always really good quality.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.