Confusion about second battery

[TheRealSean]

Go Westy sells a Auxiliary Battery Kit. They say that it is designed to charge a second deep cycle battery while the engine is running and isolate it when the ignition is off so that you can safely run your electrical devices from the auxiliary battery without depleting the charge of your primary starting battery.

I was under the impression that this is already the case? Am I mistaken? How am I supposed to charge the auxiliary battery if the engine does not charge it?

http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=2418&category_id=&category_parent_id=

[wecm31]

The GW kit allows the second battery to be charged when the motor is running and the alternator charging the starter battery.
Only when the starter battery voltage is high enough (13 VDC?) does the relay tie the aux battery in.

Many people also install a AC charger on the aux battery as well. That way when you plug in at a campsite or at home between trips,
it will charge the aux battery first, and then tie in and charge the starter battery.

Not to dis GW (I have and will do lots of business with them, good products), but I would suggest you consider a Yandina combiner.
Much more modern and efficient than GWs old school relay.
_________________
Gerald P
1985 Vanagon (Betty) & 1985 BMW R80RT (Wilhelm)
vintage boxers!!

Gone are the days we stopped to decide
Where we should go, we just ride:)

[VWCOOL]

Yes that is about the second-simplest way to charge a second ('leisure') battery in a vehicle. When your engine is running and alternator working, your car's electrical system voltage is 13.5-14V which is enough to 'close' the solenoid which connects the second battery to the system allowing it to be charged. Easy!

The easiest is a motorsport style 'kill' switch that you twist to isolate the leisure/fridge battery...but you must remember to switch it on to charge and off to isolate the battery

The third easiest... a three-way marine switch that allows selective charging and use of BOTH batteries depending on the situation... (eg: using recovery winches) but again, you must remember. Easy if you have the discipline... problems if you don't

Then you get into all sorts of increasingly expensive electronical gadgets that don't provide any real benefit to these three old-school charging methods

Hope this helps

[thatvwbusguy]

Actually, I can't imagine any possible easier way to charge an auxiliary battery in a Vanagon than using a high quality Automatic Charging Relay (ACR) like the Yandina Combiner 100. Here are a few reasons:

1.) They don't rely on the old stock wiring to carry the charging current to your auxiliary battery.

2.) They really are fully automatic. They work by monitoring voltage in both batteries. When the van is started and the alternator returns the voltage up to 13.3V in the starting battery, the ACR automatically connects the batteries together. When the van is not running and voltage in either battery drops below 12.8V, the ACR separates the batteries.

3.) If you connect a 120V battery charger, or a solar panel to the auxiliary battery, it will also charge the starting battery once the auxiliary battery reaches 13.3V.

4.) Only 3 wires to hook up and you are charging your auxiliary battery.

5.) No switches for you, your wife, your kids, your dog etc to mess around with and possibly leave you with a dead starting battery through no fault of your own.

6.) The Yandina takes a very small amount of space and is built to last. Since it was originally designed for the marine industry, where everything is purposefully overbuilt.

7.) No need to cut any stock wiring to charge your auxiliary battery with the Yandina.

8.) If your van is an 86-91, you can run your interior lights, radio and 12V socket by running a single wire up to the dash from the auxiliary battery. https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrela...iary-power
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[kourt]

+1 on the Yandina.

My van is wired with a Yandina Combiner 160 managing the charging between the starter battery and my 3-battery aux bank, with a solar and AC charger connected to the solar bank.

The van had not been started for several weeks due to a Bostig conversion, but I finally reached the point where I could connect the starter battery again (but not yet start the van). I was slightly concerned about the starter battery not being up to snuff after sitting idle...

...but to my great pleasure, I heard the Yandina clicking on and off on a sunny day last week, distributing solar charge to the starter battery. I didn't have to do anything for that to happen--it self regulates very well on its own.

kourt

[Howesight]

GoWesty has a lot of great products at fair prices. Their Auxilliary charger kit is not one of them. It just does not work.

The reason is that the current capacity is insufficient. The wiring connecting the alternator to the house battery must be much larger in order to properly and quickly charge the house battery. Small-gauge wires on longish runs create resistance. The automatic charge relay that some posters above refer to , the Yandina, is excellent. One other excellent brand is Surepower, which has 2 main models, the 1315 for most applications, and the 1314, for vehicles that also employ solar power systems.

To install one of these automatic units, one must ensure that the wires from the main battery to the house battery are sufficiently large to get charging voltage to the house battery. If your house battery is under the driver's seat, the wire length to service that location mandates wire gauge of #4 AWG , in my experience. If you locate the house battery under the bench seat, a longer wire run is created and you ought to go to, say, a #1 AWG or even a #0. Bear in mind that the bonus, in addition to effective charging, is the ability to use the house battery to assist the main battery if cold weather or leaving the headlights on requires more cranking power.

The other thing Go Westy doesn't tell you is that the stock Vanagon alternator will not put out the power needed to fully charge a house battery. It only puts out 13.5 or 13.6 volts. A flooded house battery requires 14.8 volts for both the bulk phase and the absorption phase of charging. AGM and Gel Cell batteries require 14.4 volts. At the stock VW Vanagon charging rate of 13.5 volts, your house battery WILL NOT CHARGE TO 100%. In addition, the 75% or maybe 80% charge you do get will take an awfully long time.

Solution? Do an engine conversion. All the modern conversions have 14.5 to 14.8 volt regulators. My SVX alternator puts out 14.6 to 14.7 volts. Okay, although the engine conversion will solve the alternator voltage problem, it may not be the most practical solution.

A more practical solution? A Vanagon adjustable output alternator regulator. Bonus: Brighter headlights!

Here's a link:

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Adjustable-Voltage-Re...ulator.htm

Even with your charge system properly set up, a quality battery charger should be employed at least once per month. The VW charging system is not a sophisticated system that meets the charging requirements of deep cycle batteries. (Your house battery should be a deep-cycle battery, by the way.) Only a good solar charge controller or a modern battery charger when shore power is available will do the trick. I have had great success with the Noco Genius G-7200 charger. It does a lot of different things, but in the case of your house battery, it will charge it to 100%, which is necessary to avoid premature battery death. It also allows you to "desulfate" your house battery periodically. It keeps a float charge on you battery when you don't drive it. If your Westy is a weekend warrior and not a daily driver, the float charging is very useful.

I have been able to go a full weekend running my TF-65 fridge in summer weather on just a 110 Amp/hour group 27 battery because my charging system is robust (flooded-cell battery, large wires, Surepower 1315 and 14.7 volts). Once home, if the drive home was not long (meaning less than 5 hours), I will plug in the Noco Genius and it takes over.

My flooded-cell battery is now in year 6!! It is a cheap brand made for "Canadian Tire" (kind of Canada's Harbor Freight) by some manufacturer in China. Admittedly, this is likely the last summer for this battery, I am impressed by the long life a bit of regular maintenance provides.

Price list:

1. Surepower 1315: $102 ( http://www.amazon.com/Sure-Power-1315-Bi-Directional-Separator/dp/B002HVME2W)

2. #0 AWG wire: $20

3. Compression-style terminals: 3pcs @$5.00 = $15.00 ( http://www.solarseller.com/battery_post_connectors_conversions_adapters_repair.htm )

4. Adjustable 14.5 v Vanagon voltage regulator: $40.00 (see link above)

Total: $177.00

Oh, and it actually works.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[madspaniard]

Wow, $40 for the adjustable voltage regulator

Here you have it for $16
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Voltage-Regulator-Bosch-Au...35a363b271

Definitely cheaper than an engine conversion

By the way, you should measure the voltage at the house battery, not at the alternator
_________________
1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD

"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali

[thatvwbusguy]

Anyone installing the battery under the rear seat would be much better off pulling the power from the 8mm stud on the starter. Drill a single hole for the wire to pass through (use a rubber grommet to protect the wire) and you have a wire that is only about 4 feet long feeding the auxiliary battery. Since the power to the starter is fed directly from the alternator, this is a great source to pick up the 12V+.

I have used 2AWG, 4AWG, 6AWG and 8AWG wire to feed different auxiliary battery setups installed under the rear seat. With the stock Vanagon alternator, I prefer to use the thinner 8AWG to avoid overtaxing the stock alternator. 8AWG wire can still safely handle at least 60A and I usually protect the circuit with a 40A fuse or breaker, which never trips.

Engine conversions with higher output alternators can take advantage of the thicker wire much more than the stock Vanagon alternator. I will be moving the batteries under the rear seat in my '85 Westy (Bostig Zetec conversion w/ 120A alternator). I plan to use 6AWG wire and 80A circuit protection for my installation.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[TheRealSean]

How likely is an electrical fire with the aux. battery under the driver seat

[madspaniard]

[wecm31]

Is the van sitting on the wheels or the roof?


...seriously, the only factor that gave me anxiety was the thought of a
vehicle roll over and the metal terminals grounding/sparking out to the
frame. To prevent that, I have secured a hard plastic shield over the
positive terminal.

otherwise, what is the chance of the main battery under the passenger
seat catching fire?? If things are wired correctly (don't skimp on the
wire gauge) and fusing used, I don't see either scenario likely with the
rubber side down....

Care to ask about dash fires??
_________________
Gerald P
1985 Vanagon (Betty) & 1985 BMW R80RT (Wilhelm)
vintage boxers!!

Gone are the days we stopped to decide
Where we should go, we just ride:)

[jsalkeld]

[thatvwbusguy]

That recall was only for a limited number of units that were sold back in 2010-2011. There have been no reported problems with any of the SurePower products since then.

The serial numbers that were involved in the recall were:

Model 1314 (S/N 09004545 - 10008041)
Model 1315 (S/N 09002323 - 10003168)

I would not hesitate to install a SurePower unit in my van.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[70coupyel]

[Rodknock]

I have the GW aux battery kit and it works fine. Just run a larger wire, say 8 or 10 ga from the starter battery under the carpet and over to the space under the driver's seat. Then install an adjustable voltage regulator and you'll get a tad over 14v to the second battery (assuming everything us up to snuff). You'll get a little voltage drop over the GW kit, but you'll get far more voltage drop over the long small stock wires that run from the starting battery, to the dash, and the back to the second battery location.

And another thing:). I would not recommend AGM type batteries for the second battery. They need very specific charging and the stock Vanagon is not going to do it (and if your van sits for more than a week or two it needs to be on trickle or you will kill the AGM). And they are expensive. I guess if you've done an engine conversion you are ok, otherwise use a marine deep cycle flooded battery. I just put a group 24 under the rear bench and ran 8ga wire all the way back behind the cabinets and I still get about 14v. I'll never use all of the 70 amp hours anyway, so charging is not an issue with the flooded deep cycle. IMHO Keep it simple, stay away from expensive AGM's and fancy charging units.

[crazyvwvanman]

So you are saying it works fine as long as you don't install it the way their instructions say to do it and as long as you don't use the parts in the kit for some important wiring?

Mark

[thatvwbusguy]

I generally try to keep as positive about the products from any of our core of Vanagon vendors, but I have to reluctantly make an exception in this case.

Using old, thin stock wiring to charge an auxiliary battery is a perfect example of "how not to do it". The goal should be to provide the shortest path from the alternator post to the positive post of the batteries with the least amount of bottlenecks possible, since doing so will cause less resistance and less voltage drop.

The stock Vanagon wiring system was nearing its design limits when it left the factory. 23+ years later, the conditions can only have gotten worse due to oxidation and corrosion in the wires and terminals, leading to higher resistance and less charging efficiency.

With this in mind, if the goal is to spend more money and get less charging performance, the GW Auxiliary Battery setup is unquestionably the way to go. It also gives installers the opportunity to needlessly chop up the wiring on the rear of the fuse block as well, which is a nice option.

In the past 2-3 years I have guided at least 20 people through the process of removing the GW solenoid based kit and installing an ACR to better serve their charging needs.

GoWesty specifies that their auxiliary battery kit is only meant for use with the small 44Ah battery they sell. Anything larger will easily overwhelm the minimal charging performance their system can offer. Chronically undercharged batteries die long before their intended lifespan. This has been proven many times over the years after installing a kit with limited current capacity.

With so many superior alternatives readily available in today's marketplace, it troubles me to see a company that I respect sell a kit like this to unsuspecting customers who don't know any better than to install it in their van.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[Rodknock]

[crazyvwvanman]

Yes, some of us have known for years that the GW Kit method of wiring often gives poor results. The solenoid in the kit is ok for the job but it is just a generic $20 item and you can buy that anywhere, or even a better one if you look a little. The problem is that many people buy the GW kit because they don't have much of a clue how to do such a thing without a kit. Then they end up with various problems and need help. Avoiding the "kit" in the first place is a better way IMHO.


http://www.alliedelec.com/catalog/pf.aspx?fn=391.pdf&pageNum=391

Mark

[WTGPhoben]

It seems from posters above that creating shorter path from the main battery to the AUX battery is the most straightforward way to improve the GW kit (which I have already). If I were to do this, what is the correct circuit protection (if any) to put between the main battery and the starter battery?