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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| kirk knighton wrote: |
| BTW, the 411 with the 2-litre and automatic is MUCH faster than the 412 with the 4-speed. It's even faster/more powerful than Sparkie, which is 1.8 litre with stock L-Jet. It's really a great motor. |
Thats because the 1.8l was a dog with about 13 hp less than a 1.7L with D-jet. Sadly...if its a bus 2.0...even that has marginally more hp than a 1.7L with D-jet.
Imagine putting the 2.0 with the four speed. I have driven all of these in 411/412....any engine coupled with the four speed will beat the same engine coupled with the automatic.
yes...for the short term keeping the carbs is simpler. In the long term...D-jet injection on the 2.0 will beat the carbs when properly tuned.
The L-jet was really lame on the 412. It ran ok...but is not really adjustable enough to properly tune with. The real problem is that coupled with lean running and less adjustability...the 1.8's had really poor compression.
Bumping an L-jet 1.8 engine up to the same compression as a D-jet 1.7 (8.0 or 8.2:1) is a remarkable difference.....but still not as quick as the 1.7L. Eons ago you could find flat top 93mm pistons to do this with.
Yes....now that you mention the SAE bolt...it very well could be a helicoil.
If all else is well with this engine...compression, cam, end play etc....this would be a very good candiate for a weekend teardown. leave all the bearings in it unless you want to just replace them with standard/standard...maybe throw in some new cam bearings if nothing else.....carefully disassemble....clean things up a bit...fix that helicoil hole with a solid wall insert and slap in a new gasket set. You could get away with $150. |
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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| As far as I know the rest of the engine is good, with about 25,000 miles on it as well. Well, this is going to be an adventure whatever I end up doing. Now, to break the news to my wife....she runs the Bills Dept. in our house! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| If luck is with you...and the boss is not cracked inside....this will be a cheap but tedious fix. Ray |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I have wondered about drilling deeper or maybe drilling all the way through the case and using a nut. Is there something in the way that would prevent doing this?
I am pretty happy with my autobox as far as performance, but I have a good 004 manual box that I am thinking of replacing it with to see if I can get the gas mileage up a bit. I have L-jet on my engine and see no reason to change it for either carbs or a D-jet. Since 1972 and later Bay (and essentially early Vanagons) used L-jet the parts are much more available around here than D-jet ones. The compression of the later Type 4 engine certainly sucks, and since I have gone to running high test to get rid of the alcohol going to a high compression ratio pistons makes even more sense.
BTW AA has been making flat top 1800 piston so you can go higher compression with an 1800. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
I have wondered about drilling deeper or maybe drilling all the way through the case and using a nut. Is there something in the way that would prevent doing this?
I am pretty happy with my autobox as far as performance, but I have a good 004 manual box that I am thinking of replacing it with to see if I can get the gas mileage up a bit. I have L-jet on my engine and see no reason to change it for either carbs or a D-jet. Since 1972 and later Bay (and essentially early Vanagons) used L-jet the parts are much more available around here than D-jet ones. The compression of the later Type 4 engine certainly sucks, and since I have gone to running high test to get rid of the alcohol going to a high compression ratio pistons makes even more sense.
BTW AA has been making flat top 1800 piston so you can go higher compression with an 1800. |
Could it be drilled all the way through?....well.....yes....i just looked at one of my cases on my workbench. the problem though is that the hole would come out off center on a kind of slot opposite on the other side of teh case. To be able to tighten a nut here...you would need about an inch of weld there and then machine a flat spot after the hole is through. I have no idea what the heat may do to the strength of the web for th cam bore.
Yes...getting some real compression for L-jet will really make a difference. It will never tune out quite as well as D-jet on an otherwise same engine....but should run very well.
The difference with L-jet that made it less tunable...and also why they ran it leaner overall for emmissions...is that it was bank fired...all four at once. While that is common for much better results now....back then the L-jet did not have the logic and sensors to clean up after the four wet ports that result from bank fire. If run otherwise slightly richer like D-jet...it ran alot richerat low rpms. but it was simplerand les complicated to tune than D-jet.
While D-jet was not perfect in its paired injector pattern...causing two ports to run wet at lower rpms....D-jet had at least two cylinders with full fuel doses going in while the intake valve was open...and...in those days thefixed pressure system was a bit more accurate than the variable rising rate system that L-jet brought out.
This was mostly a mixture of so-so regulator technology and the lack of a higher resolution oxygen sensor system to make corrections for what it lacked in injection control.
That all being said...much better compression, porper valve sizing, better than stock exhaust and a better coil....would make a HUGE difference with L-jet. It should have closeto D-jet performance. Ray |
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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray, do you think I could reach in there with something and just try to pull out that broken helicoil and then try to install a bigger bolt? I mean, at least before pulling the engine out and taking it all apart? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I think you could reach in and pull out the helicoil....but the fact that the helicoil is loose means that the threads that held it in have stretched and fractured most likely. It really is a pretty fair reach inside.
If when you get the heliocil out you can assess the size of the hole....I would then carefully...if its not too big....tap it out to the next bolt size. The problem is being sure that the next bolt size will pass through the loop for the oil pickup tube.
There are any numebr of ways you could get this to barely work but then you would never rally know the condition. If its just stripped and not cracked....the really best thing to do is split the case and at a bare minimum just get a new gasket kit...so you can repair the bore with a solid wall insert. Ifwhen you get inside its cracked....well then it was largely undriveabel in a reliable fashion. Ray |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
I have wondered about drilling deeper or maybe drilling all the way through the case and using a nut. Is there something in the way that would prevent doing this?
I am pretty happy with my autobox as far as performance, but I have a good 004 manual box that I am thinking of replacing it with to see if I can get the gas mileage up a bit. I have L-jet on my engine and see no reason to change it for either carbs or a D-jet. Since 1972 and later Bay (and essentially early Vanagons) used L-jet the parts are much more available around here than D-jet ones. The compression of the later Type 4 engine certainly sucks, and since I have gone to running high test to get rid of the alcohol going to a high compression ratio pistons makes even more sense.
BTW AA has been making flat top 1800 piston so you can go higher compression with an 1800. |
Could it be drilled all the way through?....well.....yes....i just looked at one of my cases on my workbench. the problem though is that the hole would come out off center on a kind of slot opposite on the other side of teh case. To be able to tighten a nut here...you would need about an inch of weld there and then machine a flat spot after the hole is through. I have no idea what the heat may do to the strength of the web for th cam bore. |
Someone with a junk case should give this a try. Depending on how the hole ends up laying, you might be able to level out the area with some JBWeld. You could also grind down one side of the nut to gain clearance as well. Would be worth a try.
If there is nothing in the way, it would be hard to understand why VW didn't go all the way through as they did in other locations. |
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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks Ray. I guess I will give it a try this weekend. I was thinking needlenose pliers, but I doubt they'd be able to reach far enough. Are there pliers especially made for a job like this? I'll go down to the local NAPA store and see what they've got. Any other ideas? Chopsticks? Coat hanger? I'm open to any and all good ideas! |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe a rod with a slot cut in the end? This is going to be difficult. It is easy to turn the Helicoil in, but they resist being turned back out. |
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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: An update, two years later |
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| I already posted a new topic about this, but I thought I'd finish up this topic here. So the great shop in Seattle took the engine out earlier this month and found the case was indeed cracked. Luckily they had several new cases to choose from, and they built me up a new 2055cc engine with hydraulic lifters and replaced the 34IDF Webers with 40 IDFs. A solid, beautiful engine, and it goes like a rocket. And this is matched with a 4-speed stick. It cost a few dollars but now I have an engine to match the car. I think my profile here has a picture of both of my 412s. |
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