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Clutch and Pressure Plate Questions - force 1600N
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DBCouper
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanx for the vote, Jeff. But relying on my memory is simply proving that there's no fool like an old fool. Listen to Jack .... he knows what he's talking about.

Gonna keep following your build, though. I love watching these things come together. I stuffed a Corvette engine into my '52 MGTD back when I graduated from Santa Barbara High in '63. What a death trap! It's truly amazing to see how far technology and innovation have advanced over the years. Y'all are way beyond what I had ever imagined.

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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Jeff, please tell me the part # for the 2 different bowden tubes.


111721361E
BOWDEN TUBE, 1975-1979 Beetle, OEM 111721361E

This is the one I have using, had a long tip on the end I slid my spacer on.

311721361
CLUTCH CABLE SLEEVE, bowden tube, fits all Beetles through 1974, fits through 1967 Bus, OEM 311721361
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The clutch kit came in so I mounted everything to see how it would work.

The second photo is a gauge I made out of a level. I drilled and tapped it for two screws. I could keep adjusting until even and there was no gap at the center ring. The distance was 63mm on the old and new pressure plates.

I thought it would be good to show what is happening at the pedal end. I have plenty of travel when adjusted and almost feel like a need a stop because it can go pretty far and then I feel it go "over center" and maybe that is collapsing the pressure plate too much (Jacks?).

I ran it up on the blocks you see for about 45 minutes shifting through the gears. Seeing the wheels spinning in 4th gear Cool

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Here are some pictures of the throttle linkage. The Franken-bracket actually clears. I broke all the linkage sockets open and cleaned and lubed them. You can see my prototype extention lever to get the cable above the front engine tin.

The 356 pulls from down real low and I have to pull higher. It all seems to work OK and full pedal travel = full carb travel which is great. I did not want to cut the front engine tin because it is pretty narrow there to begin with so I relieved some of the fiberglass in the firewall above it to clear the linkage and allow it to shoot above the tin.


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Last edited by JeffL on Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I really got to play today.

In the first video I move the chassis back and forth a few feet and things respond nicely. It was a little tough to do without a steering wheel, hence the "look ma no hands" title. Does this count as my first "selfie" since my foot is in the photo?

I then took it out in the driveway and had a blast with it!


Link



Link



Link

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dsrtfox
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appears to have a nice smooth release with no chatter. You nailed it dude. That droop in the boden tube looks perfect. There is a measurement but no chatter, good to go.

I checked your project thread. I'm very impressed...
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dsrtfox wrote:
Appears to have a nice smooth release with no chatter. You nailed it dude. That droop in the boden tube looks perfect. There is a measurement but no chatter, good to go.

I checked your project thread. I'm very impressed...


Thanks! I usually like stock projects but I did one other custom before a Kubel. This restoration on the Alken has been a challenge and that has made even that much more worth while. I try to document a lot of items as you can see because I hope to leave some bread crumbs for others to follow in case they want to tackle something like this. And, with great input from those like Jacks it really pulls together some techniques that all can benefit.

http://www.karmannghias.org/K2.htm
http://www.karmannghias.org/K4.htm
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Jacks
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done, Jeff! A few comments/suggestions. Does your bowden tube have enough sleeve left on the end with the spacer to keep the tube centered and stable? I probably would have used the 211-721-361-D as it is just a bit longer (1/4"?). I am a bit concerned about where the bowden rubs on the adaptor. I would recommend that you dress that area down with a rotary file on the steel plate and a bit on the housing as well. The casting of the shift housing is generally pretty thick there, so a 1/8" deep groove will probably be ok. I don't like much chafing there, although contact is OK. I like your clutch depth gauge. I have a aluminium box section from an old table saw fence that I cannibalized years ago and a machinists rule. The factory had a special tool, although I have never seen one. You probably have too much pedal overall travel for the PP. It could bend or break now that you have the linkage sorted. You can see why I advised ditching that extended pedal lever. Adjustable pedal stops started for 356 with the 'A' model. Pre A had none, as they were using the inferior VW spring PP like you removed. VW started using a fixed stop in '67(?) when they went to a stamped steel clutch pedal. I would set the pedal free play at least 1 1/2 to start with. You can adjust the pedal stop that is bolted to the floor to a more angular position to reduce travel & hold the clutch pedal down lower than the brake pedal at rest. The clutch is properly adjusted when reverse just starts to grind when releasing the pedal about 1/2" from the floor. Much more can be deleterious the PP and linkage. I don't understand why you can't run the throttle cable through the factory hole in the shroud. We never had a problem there back in the day. Sometimes a bit of minor trimming of the hole and slight bending of the bell crank was all that was needed. The pulleys look OK, but we never used them. No room on the Bug body for clearence Confused When the body is on the chassis, does the engine fit a bit low in the bay? The 644/716 have a slightly lower shift shaft exiting the trans than VW, so the drive train tilted a bit at the very rear, about 3/4". If you have this issue, I have solutions. I hope that the clutch installation is temporary (pin and balance), operation is smooth, no chatter and light pedal pressure. Don't hesitate to ask about questions/concerns. It's a pleasure to see this project come together. Really, really, nice work!

EDIT I just looked at your videos. On a stock Bug, the pedal hits the body to limit travel. "Your experience may vary..."
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I added my comment in after your questions Jacks

Well done, Jeff! A few comments/suggestions. Does your bowden tube have enough sleeve left on the end with the spacer to keep the tube centered and stable? I probably would have used the 211-721-361-D as it is just a bit longer (1/4"?).

*** It is still in the mount about 1/2 inch and the bushing from the shock fit snug so I don't see it move and the cable comes out the center.

I am a bit concerned about where the bowden rubs on the adaptor. I would recommend that you dress that area down with a rotary file on the steel plate and a bit on the housing as well. The casting of the shift housing is generally pretty thick there, so a 1/8" deep groove will probably be ok. I don't like much chafing there, although contact is OK. I like your clutch depth gauge.

**** That certainly is a good modification and I will grind that when I have it apart next.

I have a aluminium box section from an old table saw fence that I cannibalized years ago and a machinists rule. The factory had a special tool, although I have never seen one.

*** Sounds like I made a similar tool to yours. In one book it looked like they made one to fit in the trans to preset the throwout bearing postion, I would think that would make getting the engine bolts tight a pain.

You probably have too much pedal overall travel for the PP. It could bend or break now that you have the linkage sorted. You can see why I advised ditching that extended pedal lever. Adjustable pedal stops started for 356 with the 'A' model. Pre A had none, as they were using the inferior VW spring PP like you removed. VW started using a fixed stop in '67(?) when they went to a stamped steel clutch pedal. I would set the pedal free play at least 1 1/2 to start with. You can adjust the pedal stop that is bolted to the floor to a more angular position to reduce travel & hold the clutch pedal down lower than the brake pedal at rest. The clutch is properly adjusted when reverse just starts to grind when releasing the pedal about 1/2" from the floor. Much more can be deleterious the PP and linkage.

*** Yes I think I have too much travel now. There is no stop on my setup. Maybe I need on like this to attach to the pedal. I was a little nervous when jetting around the drive because I was trying to watch not to over extend it. As you can see I have about 1 inch of take up with a tube on the end of the cable. I can let that out which would bring the throw out way back and provide more safety here.

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I don't understand why you can't run the throttle cable through the factory hole in the shroud. We never had a problem there back in the day. Sometimes a bit of minor trimming of the hole and slight bending of the bell crank was all that was needed. The pulleys look OK, but we never used them. No room on the Bug body for clearence Confused When the body is on the chassis, does the engine fit a bit low in the bay?

***** The engine tin might be 1/2 inch low to the engine floor but not bad. I'll try to string a straigh line but it would rub on the trans nose cone to get there. I just can't see a different way but it worked fine. Using the standard opening would be nice though. I could easily fill the fiberglass slot I made. What end did you hook to the fan shroud lever? Maybe trying to use the one I have is the issue. Did you use the standard Beetle cable?

***** In the close up without the throttle cable being under tension it was hitting already trans.

**** I made the firewall and engine floor to match the 356 tin since this was all cut out with this was made to an electric car in 1958.

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My original car in the 1958 Road and Track article

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Clutch and accelerator close up.

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The 644/716 have a slightly lower shift shaft exiting the trans than VW, so the drive train tilted a bit at the very rear, about 3/4". If you have this issue, I have solutions. I hope that the clutch installation is temporary (pin and balance), operation is smooth, no chatter and light pedal pressure. Don't hesitate to ask about questions/concerns. It's a pleasure to see this project come together. Really, really, nice work!
Jack

****** I am looking for a place to pin and balance the flighwheel. The cleaning and detailing of the engine is some time off as I will work on the body now that all other items are worked out.

**** As I explained above I had to cut the shift stick off about 3/4 inch. There was too much toe in and the spring plates were almost slotted through. The rear rubber Beetle transmission mounts were also under tension so I moved it all ahead. Luckily the shaft was easy to drill so I could put the shift rod detent in.

***** Again, thanks for you help. I'm always open to input and this really worked out and I have not given up on the throttle cable yet. And thanks for the nice comments Smile
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know I had to finish this.........

Since I am not a machinist, I spend a bunch of time trying to match up pre made parts. After church I went over to ACE. I found in a drawer some accelerator cable ends. They take the steel wire type cable and make a swivel out of it.

Then, I found that the smallest alumimun turn buckel (you know you twist it and bot ends pull in) just had the right clearance for the throttle connectors. I could fit these inside and attach the cable to one and and the other to the accelerator lever. This would also allow me to offset the cable and get it away from the clutch cable (you will see in the photos). I hope this type of compression connection will handle the stress of the 356 linkage and time will tell.

When I got home I rummaged through some boxes (from like 25 years ago) and came up with a steel throttle cable. It had the loop on the end, it didn't have a part number so I'm not sure what year.

I pulled out the current cable and said good-bye to the Franken-bracket. I fished the steel cable up and starting searching out where it was hitting. After awhile, you know how it goes, I had to use Jacks advice and start grinding. After about 2 hours of careful grinding on the nose cone and the front engine tin I have a nice clean installation with a metal cable. Although I really didn't want to cut the front engine tin I was able to keep plenty of the top in place to hold the rubber seal.

I had to trim the turnbuckel body as small as possible (looks like a loop now) or it would hit the front engine tin. I also had to adjust the linkage to "pull back" the lever arm as much as possible to also keep the turn buckel back. Maybe there is a 356 nuckle to steel cable adapter in Jacks tool chest.

What I really like now is that I can get some spares in case the throttle or clutch cable fail.

This wraps up this portion for me. Thanks for veiwing and a big thanks to Jacks, I know where to find you now.

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Jacks
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that looks really nice, like it was all done as a factory installation, on par with all of the other fine work that you have done. You must be thrilled to get rid of that home brew 'Rube Golberg' stuff! I am Cool. If you feel inclined, you could fit a short piece (12"/ 18") of clear plastic tubing over the throttle cable if it still rubs on the trans housing a bit. Find one that fits tightly over the tube that exits the chassis. I remember seeing some VW's had one like that from the factory, before they used an additional long small diameter bowden type tube on the throttle cable. A factory VW boot http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701293A over the whole area would finish it off. For the flywheel balancing/pin work you could send it to Rimco http://www.rimcovw.com/home/services/case-machining/ . I have used them for this service. The FW and PP will fit in a USPS medium Flat Rate Box for shipping of about $10!!!-not including additional insurance Crying or Very sad. It's VERY heavy, so I double box it. Be sure to ask Rimco to put the pins in the same location that Porsche did for the 'B' models for replacement/upgrade consistency. You can mention my name. I also recommend some lightening of the flywheel to reduce the chance of stress fractures on the 356 crankshaft. The factory lightened the S90 to about 15LBS, and we use this # on nearly every flywheel we do. It might be fun to see before and after pix of this entire linkage transformation side by side if possible. When you get to the engine 'restoration', I am willing to give my recomendations if you like. There are some 'tricks' there. Again, magnificent work.
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Craig Richter
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, Jacks is an old and special friend of mine, and I have greatly enjoyed following along your progress. What a great project, and unique car you will have when finished. Great work! Isn't Jacks a joy to work with? I look forward to seeing your further progress on this little beauty. Thanks for sharing. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Richter wrote:
Jeff, Jacks is an old and special friend of mine, and I have greatly enjoyed following along your progress. What a great project, and unique car you will have when finished. Great work! Isn't Jacks a joy to work with? I look forward to seeing your further progress on this little beauty. Thanks for sharing. Very Happy
Craig


Thanks, this has been a blast for me. I'm always looking to bring in new knowledge and tricks of the trade which Jacks has been king (and patient). The thread started out for my looking for the right flywheel pressure and what a complete turn around!

As I get to other items I will be back and likley just post them on this thread to keep them together.
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JeffL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
Well, that looks really nice, like it was all done as a factory installation, on par with all of the other fine work that you have done. You must be thrilled to get rid of that home brew 'Rube Golberg' stuff! I am Cool. If you feel inclined, you could fit a short piece (12"/ 18") of clear plastic tubing over the throttle cable if it still rubs on the trans housing a bit. Find one that fits tightly over the tube that exits the chassis. I remember seeing some VW's had one like that from the factory, before they used an additional long small diameter bowden type tube on the throttle cable. A factory VW boot http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111701293A over the whole area would finish it off. For the flywheel balancing/pin work you could send it to Rimco http://www.rimcovw.com/home/services/case-machining/ . I have used them for this service. The FW and PP will fit in a USPS medium Flat Rate Box for shipping of about $10!!!-not including additional insurance Crying or Very sad. It's VERY heavy, so I double box it. Be sure to ask Rimco to put the pins in the same location that Porsche did for the 'B' models for replacement/upgrade consistency. You can mention my name. I also recommend some lightening of the flywheel to reduce the chance of stress fractures on the 356 crankshaft. The factory lightened the S90 to about 15LBS, and we use this # on nearly every flywheel we do. It might be fun to see before and after pix of this entire linkage transformation side by side if possible. When you get to the engine 'restoration', I am willing to give my recomendations if you like. There are some 'tricks' there. Again, magnificent work.


Here are some before and after photos.

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Jacks
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw a video of you driving your car with the body on. Congratulations! Do the linkages seem to work ok now that travel is limited on the clutch, and with no dragging/binding on the throttle? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacks wrote:
I saw a video of you driving your car with the body on. Congratulations! Do the linkages seem to work ok now that travel is limited on the clutch, and with no dragging/binding on the throttle? Very Happy


Thanks Jacks it ran great. I was naturally a little nervous on the first ride but the clutch seemed great. I was able to pull it right up on the trailer to take it down to the DMV for a vin ispection and to get the title. Thanks again for all of the help. No grabbing or jumping.

The throttle resonse was great. I will add a tube as you suggested to minimize the chance of any wear where it could rub the trans case. It will be a little while now until I can experience "full throttle response" but the initial drive when great and the seat position/layout also seemed to fit well.

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