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Anvil
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: New 2180 with Sebring Exhaust. |
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The 2180 is done. Web 163, Aircooled's L5 heads, 44s, 9.3-1 static. Engine was built by my buddy Pat McCaffery. Only have about 60 or 70 miles on it at the moment, it runs strong, but the carbs needs some tuning. I actually think the stacks on the carbs are too close to the tops of the air filters that came with the carb kit causing it to go rich. I'll swap them out out with some taller filters and go from there.
Anyway, thought you guys might want to hear how it sounds with A1's Sebring exhaust since you don't see these everyday.
Link
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74 Thing
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Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7391
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| How do you like that cam-what RPM ranges do you drive it in? |
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Anvil
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| 74 Thing wrote: |
| How do you like that cam-what RPM ranges do you drive it in? |
I have the same cam in two engines, a 1904 and now this 2180. The 2180 car has a tach and it seems to pull hard to about 6K. Don't have enough time with it yet to give an honest opinion. The 1904 car has Panchitos, less compression, 36 Dells. It seems to have a flat torque curve and I shift it by ear before it runs out of revs. You'd never know they had the same cam. Both are running 1.25-1 rockers.
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Steve Arndt
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Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Any pics of the exhaust? |
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Anvil
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
| Any pics of the exhaust? |
After it had been ceramic coated.
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andy198712
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Joined: December 05, 2010
Posts: 1209
Location: Cornwall - UK
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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That pics looks like one off Instagram from the luftcraft (sp) page??
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ps2375
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Joined: April 24, 2014
Posts: 2471
Location: Meridian,ID
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I like how it sounds, a little more time at idle would've been nice too. It hinted at a decent lope. |
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Anvil
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| andy198712 wrote: |
| That pics looks like one off Instagram from the luftcraft (sp) page?? |
It is. That's who ceramic coated it.
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Bret Young
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Joined: August 26, 2006
Posts: 756
Location: Turlock, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:45 am Post subject: |
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I look forward to hearing your input on that camshaft collection after you drive it for a while.
I have heard good things about the Web 163. I am putting parts together for a stroker motor and have been on the fence between the 163 with 1.25's or the 120 with 1.25's. My displacement will either fall at a 2085cc or a 2180cc like yourself. Just depends the crank I purchase.
Im assuming it acts much milder in the 2180 compared to the 1904 just based on the increase stroke and displacement. Let us know what you think once you break it in a bit more. Better all around selection in the bigger motor or do you prefer it in the smaller combo.
Thanks! |
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Anvil
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Bret Young wrote: |
I look forward to hearing your input on that camshaft collection after you drive it for a while.
I have heard good things about the Web 163. I am putting parts together for a stroker motor and have been on the fence between the 163 with 1.25's or the 120 with 1.25's. My displacement will either fall at a 2085cc or a 2180cc like yourself. Just depends the crank I purchase.
Im assuming it acts much milder in the 2180 compared to the 1904 just based on the increase stroke and displacement. Let us know what you think once you break it in a bit more. Better all around selection in the bigger motor or do you prefer it in the smaller combo.
Thanks! |
It's the opposite actually. It's a little hard for me to reconcile the difference between the two engines at this point as it seems to be much greater than the difference in displacement would lead you to think. Especially when you consider they are built very similarly.
The heads flow about the same, Panchitos vs. L5s. 36 Dells vs. 44 Webers. The 1904 is very linear feeling, where the 2180 has a definite power band. I think the biggest difference is compression ratio which is 9.3-1 on the 2180 and about 8-1 on the 1904. I'll have a better idea on the difference once I get the sync, jetting, & air filter issues sorted out on the 2180. The 2180 is in a heavier car too:
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Steve Arndt
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Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Is your garage door missing its spring?
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:01 am Post subject: |
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You can easily get away with more cam on a stroker engine, compared to the same with a shorter stroked crank.
What many fail to realize when building strokers is if they treat them the same as non-stroked engines, they often have too much torque down low. All that does is break parts and spin tires.
So a simple solution is more cam, to take away torque down low and put it on top. As it is a healthy 2275 (for example) will easily have over double the torque of a stock 1600, even with a big cam.
It's a common mistake to see a torque and HP curve of a stroker engine and think it's gutless under 2500 RPM, because of how much more it makes from 4-6k. But if you were to overlay a stock torque/hp curve you'd understand.
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Anvil
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
Is your garage door missing its spring?
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The doors are getting replaced this week, but I have a feeling I didn't get the joke?
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Yes.
I never really figured out why a W120 cam with 1,25 rockers were so interesting compared to a FK8 with 1,4 rockers. When youre in that range, you will get more for your money with the FK8/1,4.
The 163 w. 1,25´s will pull more lower end power and peak 250-400 rpm earlier than the Fk8 |
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Anvil
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Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
You can easily get away with more cam on a stroker engine, compared to the same with a shorter stroked crank.
What many fail to realize when building strokers is if they treat them the same as non-stroked engines, they often have too much torque down low. All that does is break parts and spin tires.
So a simple solution is more cam, to take away torque down low and put it on top. As it is a healthy 2275 (for example) will easily have over double the torque of a stock 1600, even with a big cam.
It's a common mistake to see a torque and HP curve of a stroker engine and think it's gutless under 2500 RPM, because of how much more it makes from 4-6k. But if you were to overlay a stock torque/hp curve you'd understand. |
I get your point, but in the 2180's case, I didn't want a high rev engine, wanted some grunt since the car is heavier and rolling big tires plus it's supposed to be my wife's daily driver.
But, the 163 feels & acts like more cam in the 2180 than it does the smaller/milder 1904. I would have expected the opposite. Again, it could just be due to tuning/jetting teething issues with the 2180 and I reserve the right to change my opinion once it's properly sorted. Right now, it definitely "comes on the pipe" above 3K and would pull strong past 6 if I cared to. The car is rolling 215/70-15s right now and it'll break the tires loose easy from a 10-mph roll in 1st.
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Dwayne_71SB
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Joined: February 26, 2009
Posts: 277
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Anvil wrote: |
| Steve Arndt wrote: |
Is your garage door missing its spring?
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The doors are getting replaced this week, but I have a feeling I didn't get the joke? |
I think he's referring to the long return spring on your throttle linkage. I'm running a similar setup with my Scat linkage.
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:22 am Post subject: |
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the other effect that is counter intuitive is that often you can get a smoother low end by using bigger carbs/venturis. This lessens the reversion you get with big cams.
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It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!
Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net
"Like" our Facebook page at
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and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net |
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Anvil
Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Dwayne_71SB wrote: |
| Anvil wrote: |
| Steve Arndt wrote: |
Is your garage door missing its spring?
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The doors are getting replaced this week, but I have a feeling I didn't get the joke? |
I think he's referring to the long return spring on your throttle linkage. I'm running a similar setup with my Scat linkage. |
Ah, got it. He's makes a solid point.
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Bret Young
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Joined: August 26, 2006
Posts: 756
Location: Turlock, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Anvil wrote: |
It's the opposite actually. It's a little hard for me to reconcile the difference between the two engines at this point as it seems to be much greater than the difference in displacement would lead you to think. Especially when you consider they are built very similarly.
The heads flow about the same, Panchitos vs. L5s. 36 Dells vs. 44 Webers. The 1904 is very linear feeling, where the 2180 has a definite power band. I think the biggest difference is compression ratio which is 9.3-1 on the 2180 and about 8-1 on the 1904. I'll have a better idea on the difference once I get the sync, jetting, & air filter issues sorted out on the 2180. The 2180 is in a heavier car too:
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I would guess that the biggest difference in what makes the 2180 seem more powerful is the compression ratio. If the 163 is supposed to be set up around 9:1, the 1904 is probably leaving some power on the table.
| Alstrup wrote: |
Yes.
I never really figured out why a W120 cam with 1,25 rockers were so interesting compared to a FK8 with 1,4 rockers. When youre in that range, you will get more for your money with the FK8/1,4.
The 163 w. 1,25´s will pull more lower end power and peak 250-400 rpm earlier than the Fk8 |
Believe me, I know the FK8 is a great cam. Lots of people swear by it. But as of right now, I have the 1.25's sitting and didn't want to go out and buy new rocker arms. It might happen, but I know a lot of people like the E-120 in stroker motors. I know the 163 is a little milder than the 120, but it all comes down to what you want out of the motor and where you want to make your power. |
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Anvil
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Joined: September 28, 2009
Posts: 248
Location: Golden, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Bret Young wrote: |
I would guess that the biggest difference in what makes the 2180 seem more powerful is the compression ratio. If the 163 is supposed to be set up around 9:1, the 1904 is probably leaving some power on the table.
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That's my guess also. I think the 1904 is a little low on compression to start with and even more so at my altitude of 5-6K feet. I'm betting the HP difference between the two is 20 to 30hp, if not more.
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