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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: Type 4 tie rod ends (from Rays update) |
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Ok....so the saga continues. So you dont have to read through my project update until necessary....I will insert the quote about Tie rod end findings from the last update...and add to it....
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And I am down to the tie rods....which I am doing a sectional study of several old and new lnes right now. It looks like the very best out there will be the TRW/MOOG.....and they are on sale at rockauto for $4 each.
The sectioned pictures of the tie rods is an interesting study. There are a zillion improvements in this day and age in tie rod materials and finishes and accuracy of build.....but there is really only three style of inner construction
1. TRW/MOOG style which is a precise inner bore with a fill solid snap on one piece nylon cup...not two pieces. No spring. The cup fits tight on the ball...snaps on....and fits the bore precisely...and is swaged in massively tight from the back cap. Bulletproof.
2. A two piece upper and lower cup and cap without spring...just like the TRW
3. A two piece upper and lower cup and cap with a spring backing up the upper cap. Currently the Flennor brand....German (or China?)...use this style as did the original VW joints one of which I sectioned.
In reality, only the spring style can you accurately and effectively add a grease fitting to. But really....the totally sealed cup style like the TRW/MOOG and others...only need a dab of grease in the beginning..and to keep their boots intact and keep grit out.
Chances of actually wearing out or breaking the nylon one piece cup...which is so slick and wear resistant as to not change for eons...is about "0".
The TRW one I sectioned is from 1998 or so. It was still dead on tight and smooth (with about 70k miles and 16 years on them).
In all appearances it is identical in every way to the brand new TRW's I just bought so I have no reason to think they have changed internally. They are so cheap right now...made in Brazil....that I may buy a brand new one just to section.
The VW original equipment one I sectioned shows the same internal failure that every other part from that era showed......the wrong nylon alloy. The internal nylon cup turned to powder.....letting the tension spring make contact with the ball and let tension off of it. It got mushy and crunchy.
I have NOS ball joints in the box and the ones on the car were NOS when I installed them and they have about 15K on them...but they are all so old that the boots are shot......so I am finishing the molds now to make new 3 layer high temp silicone boots with nylon scrim. |
So I ordered a pair of TRW/Moog ES419R (right hand thread) inner tie rod ends last week. I was really stoked because this site...which is AWESOME by the way with STELLAR service....actually has a complete and up to date list of TRW/Moog part #'s. Hundreds of them!
http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/Universal_Outer_Tie_Rod_Ends.asp
http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/Universal_Inner_Tie_Rods.asp
Each listing has the complete specs you need for the tie rods (taper, total length, thread length, thread direction, male/female, bent or non-bent, inner or outer)
And...there it was in the fifth column under ES419R...."BENT". The proper inner tie-rods for 411 and 412 have a right hand thread and a 9* bend.
Yes....unbent tie rods will work...but depending on design and construction it causes early crapping out of the boot and bottoming out of the joint on tight turns in one direction or the other. It can make for short life.Bent is better...but I have driven about as many miles with straight as bent and the only issue is having to replace the inner tie-rod ends at between 40 and 50k miles for ripped boots or sloppy joints.
So these tie rod ends arrived today.......and they were striaght. 
And....these are the series that TRW/Moog calls their "problem solver". they have a non-clamped boot. Its a nice boot...but is not sealed on the joint end. And...it has a secondary floating ball shell on the pin end made of sintered bronze/steel alloy that is porous for grease...and has a grease fitting in the back. Otherwise the shell and cap construction was similar to regular TRW construction.
From their literature...these "problem solver" joints are made for really adverse conditions where the joints really should be greased on a very regular basis. the operative though being that the floating boot an grease fitting and porous bearing simply allows you to pump/flush debris out of the joint on a regular basis.
I can tell you that without a clamped dust boot on the body side....these joints would not last 6 weeks in areas with ice or snow...much less salt. The first road salt that gets in their regardless of flushing with grease will wreak havoc.
I will get a picture and post the series of these and others this week.
the customer service people are excellent so far. They are sending me a return link and will credit my account. They also gave me a # for TRW/Moog technical i will be calling tomorrow to see if they actually still make the ES419R with a 9* bend...and what its real part # is.
EDIT: After speaking with this company's customer service...they let me know...and this is REALLY cool....that a great many part #'s over the years get changed by TRW and others and never get upgraded in the specs list. She noted that on their site...when all else fails....look at the picture. She noted that they take great pains to use only actual pictures of the parts...not generic example pictures. In looking at the picture....it is exactly what they sent me down to the last detail. So I am searching their outer tie-rod list....and their inner tie-rod list. I am inserting the inner tie rod list as well next to the link above.
The problem is that the inner tie-rods used on the 411/412 and the right inner of the type 3....are not used for inners on anything else so they get listed in the outer tie-rod list.
Ray |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 tie rod ends (from Rays update) |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The problem is that the inner tie-rods used on the 411/412 and the right inner of the type 3....are not used for inners on anything else so they get listed in the outer tie-rod list.[/b]
Ray |
Unfortunately, it's the left inner on a type 3 (RH thread), and in 2 different sizes (1 for thru 66, and 1 for 67 on). If you think finding that one is tuff, try finding the 22* angled one for a type 34.  Add in the same deal for the type 3, in that you have 1 version for 66 and earlier cars, and 1 version for 67 to 69 cars.  The 22* angled tie rod ends are made of unobtainium.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Well....if anyone makes them at all TRW would know. I missed my window to call but I will call tomorrow and check on both part #'s.
On the type 4....if the design of the joint is decent we can use a straight joint. In "most" straight joints there is enough angle reach to allow about 5 degrees of motion past the steering stop in either direction. However keeping the joint at very extreme angles makes for short life primarily because the boot is stretched taut at its max angle and as it shrinks with age it splits.....and in short order the joint rusts.
I have been thinking about this and one of the ways it could be gotten around on type 3 right inner or type 34 22○ joints would be to cut off the threaded portion of a straight joint down to about 3/4". Just enough to thread the joint into a stub of larger diameter solid tie rod and use a lock nut.
The reulting joint between tie rod stub and tie rod end should be locked by loctite and hugh torque and dont move it again.
On the other end of this say....1.5" long larger diameter tie rod stub....you drill the hole out and thread it at a 9° or 22° angle.....then use the cut off 3" threaded section that was cut off the tie rod end....to thread into the angle hole. Lock it permanently just like the joint end
You may have to shorten the main tie rod by about 3/4" to have adjusting room but there is almost always more internal thread than you need.
In this way you create a solid angled tie rod end without bending or welding. Ray |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21511
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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More on this.....so I got a hold of TRW/Moog today. Apparently they no longer make the Bent version of ES419L or ES419R.
Also, it appears that their premium and non premium lines are merging (either that or the guy I was talking to didnt know what he was talking about which I suspect.
I asked if he could even get the straight version of ES419R....in the non "problem solver line"....he said no and that most of their joints would be this way...which I find hard to believe.
As noted, it has a non clamped floating boot and a slush bearing inside with a grease fitting.
The grease fitting is welcome always.....but the joint housing is made without a boot groove either molded or machined in...so you cannot even install a normal spring clamped boot if you wanted one. Worthless in my book.
So far i have sections of original VW and TRW original. i have new examples of the Flennor brand joint.
What I would love to have is someones bad (rusted and no boot but not broken per-se) old tie rod end...of Meyle or febi-Bilstein brand so I can section them and post pictures of construction differences.
Also as a recap....from all I have seen and experienced....the old school TRW joints with no spring are the bench mark of lifetime tightness and quality. the problem I can see is that they must have been expensive to make...because they require full machining inside so the tolerances fit the nylon insert exactly....so the crimped cap can keep it all tight.
I am one joint short of a full set of those for my car. Ray
Oh by the way...as of today 7-23-2014...Rockauto still has old style bulletproof TRW ES419L which is right outer I think on type 3 and both outer on type 4....for $4.19 each and its a manufavturer closeout Awesome! |
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