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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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 Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| I bought a very accurate laser temperature gun. |
How do you know it is accurate?
Without a traceable cert, the only way to know is to calibrate it yourself. Toss some object in a pan of water and boil the water. Measure the temp of the object in the water with your gun.
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wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| wcfvw69 wrote: |
| I bought a very accurate laser temperature gun. |
How do you know it is accurate?
Without a traceable cert, the only way to know is to calibrate it yourself. Toss some object in a pan of water and boil the water. Measure the temp of the object in the water with your gun. |
That's exactly what I did before using it on the VW. I also had purchased a digital meat thermometer and checked it's accuracy as well. When I used the laser gun at the dip stick, I got the same reading with the thermometer stuck in the dip stick hole.
My main point for the post was not realizing the 20-30 degree temperature differences where I shot the laser at on the bottom of the case. It does make since though.
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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That article doesn't seem very trustworthy. How can 20W-20 be a good 100ºF weather oil and 5W-30 not cut it at over 60ºF? 5W-30 is thicker at 212ºF than 20Wº-20, hello! And zinc? It's called ZDDP for short. And the zinc really doesn't do much, it's the phosphate and sulfer that does.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
Me? I did a search on my name and there are no posts where I used the term 254F.
I would agree you would have issues if your oil temperature was 280F. This assumes the gauge reading was accurate. |
Found it, page 14.
Yes, even double checked our result with two other dipstick gauges. That is the problem with no gauges during hot weather it is easy to push the oil temp up and not realize things are going bad.
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69827
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
Me? I did a search on my name and there are no posts where I used the term 254F.
I would agree you would have issues if your oil temperature was 280F. This assumes the gauge reading was accurate. |
Found it, page 14.
Yes, even double checked our result with two other dipstick gauges. That is the problem with no gauges during hot weather it is easy to push the oil temp up and not realize things are going bad. |
Thanks, it was 245F, that's why it did not come up.
Post:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3360291#3360291
I do remember that, I was posting to say Castrol 15W40 was garbage, although I can see I did not make that 100% clear.
I remember I slowed down to 55 mph after that and it dropped to the 230s next time I checked.
230ish is pretty normal for my '63 in the dead of summer here after a long freeway run at 60-65mph but 245F is not.
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Porsche has announced a new oil for their air cooled engines:
http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesandservices/...tions/oil/
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76940
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Yes, its been discussed on the 356 and 912 boards.... i'll stick with Brad Penn until they change it for the worse.
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| The Porsche Classic Motoroil comes in two different versions: 20W-50 for all 356, |
20W-50 is too thick unless you have a 50 year old engine that has many miles.
| Quote: |
| Although modern oils are better from a technical point of view, this is not the case when it comes to classic air-cooled flat engines. For example, the low viscosity of a 0W-30 oil means optimum cold-start behaviour, low engine resistance and other benefits in modern engines. In a 356, however, an oil of this kind can result in leaks and increased oil consumption due to the engine's higher production tolerances and lower oil pressure during operation. |
They're worried about leaks and oil passing the rings so they want you to use a thicker oil... just stupid.
Modern oils are better technically. Sounds like their marketing department has not talked to their engineering department.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I should have checked on the Porsche forums first. Sorry. 
When I became aware of this oil this morning, the first thing I thought of was whether since it's (allegedly) good for old Porsche aircooleds, whether it would also be good for old VW aircooleds. But, yeah, when I saw 20W-50 I was very surprised. Maybe they think old Porsches don't get driven in cold weather. 
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69827
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| 79SuperVert wrote: |
I should have checked on the Porsche forums first. Sorry.
When I became aware of this oil this morning, the first thing I thought of was whether since it's (allegedly) good for old Porsche aircooleds, whether it would also be good for old VW aircooleds. But, yeah, when I saw 20W-50 I was very surprised. Maybe they think old Porsches don't get driven in cold weather. |
In super hot weather too?
Unless Porsches need 20W-50 for some reason instead of a 10W-30 or 15W-40
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:51 am Post subject: |
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At nearly $14 per liter it better be good.
Last edited by Wildthings on Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26324
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I find it somewhat interesting that the Porsche write-up has no mention of zinc/ZDDP. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26790
Location: Colorado Springs
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Alex6373
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2007
Posts: 882
Location: Vancouver Island,B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| 168 pages to answer the question and still no definite answer ,keeper going boys! |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13281
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| 79SuperVert wrote: |
I should have checked on the Porsche forums first. Sorry.
When I became aware of this oil this morning, the first thing I thought of was whether since it's (allegedly) good for old Porsche aircooleds, whether it would also be good for old VW aircooleds. But, yeah, when I saw 20W-50 I was very surprised. Maybe they think old Porsches don't get driven in cold weather. |
In super hot weather too?
Unless Porsches need 20W-50 for some reason instead of a 10W-30 or 15W-40 |
Almost everybody on the 912 board recommends VR1 20W-50. I used it in mine. It leaks out slower than 10w-30  . 20w-50 was the only VR1 I could find in Houston. It is hot here now, but winter gets to 32 a couple times a year |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Yes the 356/912 engine needs thick and high AW motor oil. Why? because the engine is an evolution of the 36 hp VW engine with many of the same dimensions.
Cam wear is a problem even in a stock engine because they had valve springs as strong as a set of VW HD single springs and because Porsche had to make the cam lobe small because the connecting rod would swing down and hit the cam lobes when they wanted to go to a 74mm stroke. Unlike a 40hp and later VW engine the rod did not swing down between the cam lobes because of the 36hp bore spacing. This is also the reason the rods are so streamlined so that they would not hit the cam lobe. Small lobes wear faster.
The two best oils for this engine are 20w-50 brad penn and VR-1. I have started my 356 engine in sub freezing weather with 20w-50 and yes starting it was tough but it worked and I will try to avoid doing that in the future.
Dan |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Yes the 356/912 engine needs thick and high AW motor oil. Why? because the engine is an evolution of the 36 hp VW engine with many of the same dimensions.
Cam wear is a problem even in a stock engine because they had valve springs as strong as a set of VW HD single springs and because Porsche had to make the cam lobe small because the connecting rod would swing down and hit the cam lobes when they wanted to go to a 74mm stroke. Unlike a 40hp and later VW engine the rod did not swing down between the cam lobes because of the 36hp bore spacing. This is also the reason the rods are so streamlined so that they would not hit the cam lobe. Small lobes wear faster.
The two best oils for this engine are 20w-50 brad penn and VR-1. I have started my 356 engine in sub freezing weather with 20w-50 and yes starting it was tough but it worked and I will try to avoid doing that in the future.
Dan |
Sub freezing weather in Southern California?
Every engines need will differ in the end (with respect to oil viscosity). Clearly 20W-50 has been in use by many without any ill effects. Especially in a stock or mildly built air-cooled VW engine. I've got a buddy in the inland empire who's run nothing but 20W-50 in his 99 Nissan Maxima...he now has over 300,000 miles on the engine.
Remember it's a 'Multi' viscosity oil. It isn't a straight weight 50.
Ever compare the two on a nice 80 degree day at running temp? They both flow very well. A single grade 20 weight will flow the same at 32F degrees as the 20W-50. Don't think so...try it and see. Where the viscosity will differ is at running temp at 32F degrees. 20W-50 on a day when the high may only be 35-45F is probably not the best choice. But then again 20W-50 should work.
Choose yours wisely.
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: |
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[quote]Sub freezing weather in Southern California?
Every engines need will differ in the end (with respect to oil viscosity). /quote]
I took a trip up into the California mountains and the next morning it was cold.
Could not agree more, every engine has it's own needs as to what's ideal and 5w-20 is not right for my Porsche and 20w-50 is not ideal for a 99 Nissan.
Cars are more forgiving than you would think on viscosity but it's more about what is ideal. One size fits all is nonsense.
Dan |
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RHough
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013
Posts: 299
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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From reading this it sounds like diesel engine oil is a good choice for ACVW engines ... 1100-1300ppm ZDDP ..?
I started using Shell Rotella in motorcycle engines years ago (the newer gasoline engine oils are bad for wet clutches used in many motorcycles). Looks to me like Shell Rotella T 10w-30 would be a good choice for an ACVW.
Randy |
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Quokka42
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Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:46 am Post subject: |
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No, you need to research a bit further. The additive pack is different for diesel oils - for a start they are much higher in detergent, so you need to use a heavier grade for the same protection.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quokka42 wrote: |
| No, you need to research a bit further. The additive pack is different for diesel oils - for a start they are much higher in detergent, so you need to use a heavier grade for the same protection. |
One would be hard pressed in the US to find a Diesel oil at a Walmart or FLAPS that was not also rated for use in a gasoline engine. For the most part this just isn't something one needs to worry about. |
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