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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jack, you are right, mine is not so bad and I want to keep it - as much as possible.
I wanted to know, if mine is "original" or if someone changed it in former years and now I have a wrong mixture of models. Mine was completely bolted around, what is period correct.
Jan _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Mediablasted and primered the model correct bolted engine "surrounding". Looks really nice, just one rusthole and some deformations.
Need to remove some broken bolts. Welded an old bigger nut on top of screw rest piece. The welding heat additionally helps releasing the bolt rest from the original weld nut.
Does anybody know where to buy this curved part. It is welded below the other engine shielding and sits at the rear engine compartement. The vertical part I already have, but the curved one is too hard to rescue.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964
Last edited by jan_t4 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2344 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Jan, you only really need the engine support rail, available from restoration design for some models. The curved piece that is attached to the straight piece is only for use on the 4 cam engines, and difficult to see from underneath. In fact, all of that lower sheet metal could be removed without any effect. Later car were this way. Of course, you will have to bore the slotted holes for the bolts, and attach the bumper over-rider stays. Any sheet metal shop with a brake should be able to make one for you. I know, I know, authenticity... _________________ Jack Staggs
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jack, good to know and thanks for the interesting informations. I was always wondering, why Porsche built two curved engine surroundings laying horizontally next to each other with different profile. Now I know, that the lower one welded to the body is for 4-cam engines and bolted upper one is for standard engines. That's why I was a little bit confused about the "originality" of the bolted upper one.
The straight vertical metal part I already have, copied the slotted holes by hand and prepared for welding in.
Jan _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Some progress on the engine housing area.
Checking, marking, cutting, forming, trimming, welding, grinding, ... - same procedure like on every panel.
One position less on the To-Do-List. _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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Magre Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2014 Posts: 6 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jan!
First of all I want to congratulate you on the great work you are doing on your car! I donīt know how many hours I have spent looking at the thread the last 6 months. The progress, the speed.. amazing!
I bought my car in Jan 2014. Its a 356 SC, 1965. all original including the original rust..since its been driven in Sweden all its life (less than 10 years on the streets) it has a lot of rust.
It took 5 days before my wife even went down to the garage
I dont have any experience in welding, mechanics or cars (work as a dermatologist) but I will learn along the way.
Liebe gruesse Magnus |
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dsrtfox Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009 Posts: 443 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Oh |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Magnus,
thanks for your compliments.
Without any experience in welding and mechanics, a Porsche 356 is a hard job to start practicing. I wish you good luck and read as much as possible about 356 restoration to avoid making all the beginner mistakes.
Hope to see some pictures whe you start your project.
Jan _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Replaced the rear engine perimeter and rear corner bumper brackets.
This lower panel needs to be replaced after removing the old corner brackets.
Cut the old one out ... and testfitting of new panel.
Preparing rear panel and bumper bracket corners with welding primer before welding.
After aligning everything on the car and marking the position, I use the spot welding gun to fix the corner brackets to the rear panel at correct height and distance.
Rear corners have to be repaired. The area under the old bumper brackets was really rusty.
Testfitting and fixing the welded new panel.
Finally welded everything in place with the spot welding gun at corners. Originally the lower edge of the curved rear engine compartment has be bent around the upper edge of my new straight rear panel. But this will result in a 3-layer area with heat from the engine, water from the street and all this will probably result in rust again. So I decided just to weld it together from top, without wrapping around.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:19 am Post subject: |
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Lots of new pictures ... engine compartment nearly finished.
Overlay of different unprotected metal layers end in rust on driver side. What a surprise Details come out if you open the first layer.
Built a new panel in original dimensions and primed from backside.
Same on codriver side
Had to close to spot weld drill holes on the upper edge to use the spot weld gun later again.
Used a copper plate for underlay - easier to close holes.
After grinding down the welding.
Everything finished welding, grinding and finally in Primer. Somer minor grinding necessary later.
This will be one of my favorite pictures for the next week.
Engine compartment mostly finished and primered.
Coming more and more to the end in welding.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964
Last edited by jan_t4 on Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Jan,
Just like Justin on abcgt you have some super clamping tools. Anyone who starts to do this type of work has to invest in many clamps and in all versions to meet the requirement. Without clamps forget it.
I find your work always so nice, trouble is you like Justin make it look easy and its not.
Great photo's again, hell, these cars rusted everywhere. More and more I can't believe I still even have my original battery box, lucky don't I know it.
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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PASHN8 Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011 Posts: 152 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Amazing Jan, great to see the progress continuing! _________________ www.dinography.com.au - Dino!
1957 11-Window Split Bus
1954 3-fold Sunroof Oval Beetle
*** Looking for '56 Porsche T1 356A 1300 engine no. 22373 *** |
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alphi Samba Member
Joined: November 29, 2004 Posts: 11 Location: France
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Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:36 am Post subject: |
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Great job Jan !
Your progress is good to see !
Soon no rust ... _________________ PORSCHE 356 AT2 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the motivating compliments to everybody!!!
Some more progress ... some more pictures
After thinking and thinking and thinking about the area between front hood and windscreen I started trying to pull it to the front to straighten the problematic area - see the threat of some days ago.
I built a special "tool" to pull it forward, sitting on the upper frontaxle tube using the special C-Clamp for Dozers.
It worked, but did not result in a quality I want. So after thinking and thinking and thinking again, I decided to go the harder but finally better way with hopefully higher result quality. My problematic area is a one piece metal part including the lower windscreen edge and upper dashboard area.
See the following pictures and you know, what I mean:
Started building a frame of windscreen size to adjust everything back later on.
The upper and lower half of the dash board are just welded every 10 cm. Easy to grind.
Welding edge at A-posts.
Drilling the spot welds on front edge
After removing lots of tin, started cutting upper layers of A-post.
After 2 hours of work, it was done without any bigger problems ... The windscreen area and A-posts are really stiff and nothing moves. Will be not so complicated to bring everything back together ...
This bent area needs an intensive Eckhold treatment and will be welded back at the right position with an straight and continuous rising top edge - like on the nice pictures, MMW sent 4 weeks ago. Thanks again and to Roy also, who confirmed it.
Everywhere you look, you will find rust and more rust.
Same job like everywhere else ...
Finished ... Some sandblasting of the whole area and some primer is following.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2344 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Very nice work Jan. Good thinking outside of the box. Those areas with the new flanges above the closing panels were not attached to the fender AFAIK, just caulked to prevent moisture entering the interior of the car. With all the work "the welders" are doing these days, I may be forced to rethink my perception that some "original" cars are better. _________________ Jack Staggs
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dsrtfox Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009 Posts: 443 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Jack, I too am shocked at all the rust Jan is finding. I'm starting to think that a lot of the "so called" totally rust free cars, are not. As far as I can tell my car has been in Arizona all of it's life. The Arizona title I received when I bought the car was dated 1968 and I know of the guy (now passed on) who owned it before that. Still and all I'd bet I have some of the issues that Jan has found way down in the crevices. Good thing I don't loose sleep over such things |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jacks, you're right. The fender is not welded to the new flanges I rebuilt on driver side. On some cars, where this area is rusty and missing stability, people start welding the remaining metal parts together to get the car stiff again in that area and close from water coming to the inside.
On the inner small new rebuilt edge with the step profil originally a black rubber hose of around 12-15mm diameter is laying (approx 25cm long). This touches the underside of fender and closes the driver compartment from the outside. In addition, lots of sealing mass is pumped in to additionally caulk. This is the main problem, because the sealer gets harder and harder over the years and minor cracks appear. Water from the front wheels is sprayed in there and it starts to rust.
I think none of the todays "original" Porsche 356 are rust free - but it depends on the level of service and attention during the last years, how much the rust started to destroy the car. I think some minor rust is not the problem and it is not worth to start a full rotisserie restoration job - if it's not necessary and you definitely have the time or money to finish a restoration. Otherwise you have destroyed a running Porsche and loose lots of money, selling the stuck restoration project to someone, who will try to finish.
But if you buy a broke restoration project which needs a lot of welding like mine on most of the typical areas, you can do the total program to be safe for the next 50 years. It's not worth to pay for a quality paint job and in 5 years the rust comes out again, because you omitted to repair some problematic areas to get it faster back on street or put 20kg of bondo on it. Especially if you want to keep the car for yourself.
Jan _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Jan,
Your thread becomes more and more interesting. To make that nice pull out jig that didn't quite work was hard enough for some people, let alone the decision to remove the panel under the windscreen. The windscreen brace an excellent idea, its no good thinking of structural rigidity after removing items like that.
I noticed the amount of molten lead as well put there by Reutter. Are you good at leading? Took me a long time to get right.
Jack is correct as well as yourself, in thinking just how much rust exists on the original bodied cars. Not so many cars lived all their lives in the Arizona desert and I reckon only a small percentage of all restored 356 cars have ever had the areas in some of Jan's thread removed. I don't think I have ever seen that area under the windscreen off a car from memory.
So, taking into account the first 10 years life of my car took place over here in the UK with wet weather often the norm, just how much rust do I have in the hidden areas you can't get to under the wings ( fenders ) at the top?
I remember scraping every bit of the factory underseal off the car 38 years ago and trying my best to get up there under the wings with the scraper. But trying then to paint and re-seal was almost impossible to reach and cover it.
It really is only in the past few years that fully detailed threads by Jan and Justin have shown just how rotten they can be. Its actually impossible to know the rust condition unless the car has sat for over 50 years in a temperature controlled showroom.
I do know for certain, since the late 60's I have removed the areas that had rust visable to the eye, and have resisted the urge to drive in wet weather.
I made the decision also not to go down the bodywork route again but just to drive it every week and enjoy it. But Jan your story is fantastic and the time involved to just put all those photos on here with your explanation on the procedure must take you hours.
Vielen Dank Jan!
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Jan,
Further to my last post today, I have been thinking about that panel you have to rectify that you have taken out from below the windscreen. That is going to be a difficult job to get correct.
Mic's photo's are excellent but I think you need even more so I have taken some of mine that are likes Mic's original.
You will notice I have held the ruler upright not flat so you can see the gaps underneath the ruler. The ruler can almost be moved flat from the top of the bonnet to the beginning of the radius that goes up to meet the rubber seal.
From my calculation the radius is around 65mm I think your radius is untouched? The actual start of the radius seems to be around 35mm away from the rubber seal.
The main fact Jan is if you can get it almost flat on the surface up to 55mm away from the seal it should work. BUT.. will it match up the bonnet line??
Have a look at the photos and mesure your existing part. Any questions ask me.
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Hi Roy,
thanks for your excellent pictures. I think on your car, it looks like a really straight top line, even more than on MMWs pictures, where it looks to be a little convex curved. Is your car original on that area?
If I compare yours with mine, it's a long way to go.
I think I have to test align everything in the front area together, to find the final outline: the reformed area below the windscreen, the hood and also the front mask. Because without the front mask is final place, the final angular horizontal position of the front hood is not fixed and the overall straight line not visible.
If I can decipher your rulers correct, the direct length from lower windscreen rubber seal edge to the beginning of front hood gap is around 185mm in the centerline of the car. Do you know how much the rubber seal overlaps the curved metal area or just ends at the metal edge? Not easy to explain what I mean. If you look at the picture of my car above, my ruler has to be 1cm to the right and upwards, to show the edge that I mean?
Jan _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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