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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: Link pin front end help! |
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Just got a new job so it's time to stop procrastinating on my baja daily driver front end.
Let me just say that the front end was fine until I got in an accident in December. The other car hit and tweaked my front drivers side wheel inwards. And if it wasn't for the bumper, who knows what would've happened with only the fiberglass protecting the gas tank.
So after the accident I realigned the wheels and drove it for a while. What's really weird is that the front wheels were cambered. When I move forward the wheels caber out /\ and when I move back they camber in \/. Which told me that the wheels were still not aligned right. I aligned it the best I could, replaced the king and link pins with bilstiens, and replaced the steering damper because the old one didn't work at all. The wheels are still cambered and I have no idea what the problem can be at this point.
On the freeway I would almost say it's a double-laner. I'm all over the lane and there's some play in the wheel. My dad said he doesn't think it's the steering box but at this point I'm ready to try anything. Any help would be great. _________________ Money is a gas, not a trip
OGK
my 63 baja daily driver
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6485278&highlight=#6485278 |
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joe56vw Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2004 Posts: 3202 Location: Olympia wa
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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On a stock beam camber is fixed and should not change as the wheels travel up and down, or when you drive forward or backwards. If yours is changing, something is amiss!
Being a Baja, the front end may not be stock. Can you post pics? |
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Let me just say that the bumper is pretty tweaked from the crash. My car was hit on the front of the driver side wheel/bumper. So here's the camber moving forward. Alignment changed so now the camber is opposite than what it used to be.
You can see the tire tread is wearing down pretty awkwardly and these tires haven't had many miles put on them
Front of tire alignment when car is pulled forward
Back of tire alignment when pulled forward
This is the camber when the car was moved back. You can see the difference is pretty big
Front of tire alignment when car was backed up
And the back of the tire alignment
The wear of the tread is pretty visible here
Passenger side
Sorry the bad pic
And the driver's side
Again, sorry for the bad pic
When the car is jacked up there's play in the wheels if I wiggle them. And after we replaced the king and link pins with bilsteins it didn't make much of a difference.
I'll post more/better pics if requested. Thanks in advance _________________ Money is a gas, not a trip
OGK
my 63 baja daily driver
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6485278&highlight=#6485278 |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7023 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Snowking63 wrote: |
When the car is jacked up there's play in the wheels if I wiggle them. And after we replaced the king and link pins with bilsteins it didn't make much of a difference.
I'll post more/better pics if requested. Thanks in advance |
Play in the wheels how? Play up and down? Play when grabbing/shaking at 12 and 6 o'clock? At 3 and 9 o'clock? Are you sure you have the link pins adjusted properly? Are you sure your wheel bearings are properly adjusted?
From what I'm seeing, when driving forward the toe in is pushing the bottom of the tires inward, when backing up the toe is forcing the bottom of the tires outward... that much movement should only be possible if things are pretty loose, enough that either the wheels are wobbling on the spindles or you can see the gaps between the trailing arms and spindles move appreciably when rocking the wheels at 12 and 6 o'clock. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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mukluk wrote: |
Snowking63 wrote: |
When the car is jacked up there's play in the wheels if I wiggle them. And after we replaced the king and link pins with bilsteins it didn't make much of a difference.
I'll post more/better pics if requested. Thanks in advance |
Play in the wheels how? Play up and down? Play when grabbing/shaking at 12 and 6 o'clock? At 3 and 9 o'clock? Are you sure you have the link pins adjusted properly? Are you sure your wheel bearings are properly adjusted?
From what I'm seeing, when driving forward the toe in is pushing the bottom of the tires inward, when backing up the toe is forcing the bottom of the tires outward... that much movement should only be possible if things are pretty loose, enough that either the wheels are wobbling on the spindles or you can see the gaps between the trailing arms and spindles move appreciably when rocking the wheels at 12 and 6 o'clock. |
The wheels move up and down if I shake them from 12 and 6. Not so much from 3 and 9 but its still slightly noticeable.. And the driver's side has a bit more play than the passenger. When my dad and I replaced the pins we made sure they went in properly, We reemed them tight and adjusted them how they should be.
I just took the aftermarket bearing tightener off the driver's side wheel to see if there's anything wrong with the bearing and it looks fine.
I'm thinking the problem is the spindle. When I move shake the wheel it moves where the king pin is. And the king pins are aren't the problem. From the accident the spindle must've gotten damaged. _________________ Money is a gas, not a trip
OGK
my 63 baja daily driver
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6485278&highlight=#6485278 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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If you are getting play, its got to be in the bearings, link pins, or king pin. Something is worn or mis-adjusted. Maybe more than one! Accidents usually bend or break something, they don't cause wear or play immediately. |
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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KTPhil wrote: |
If you are getting play, its got to be in the bearings, link pins, or king pin. Something is worn or mis-adjusted. Maybe more than one! Accidents usually bend or break something, they don't cause wear or play immediately. |
Actually my dad told me it was having the front end problems before the accident which was before the car was mine but the accident made everything much more noticeable. Either way I'll be replacing the spindles. _________________ Money is a gas, not a trip
OGK
my 63 baja daily driver
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6485278&highlight=#6485278 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34003 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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The pins and/or bushings can be replaced without replacing the whole spindle. I would take one side apart and inspect it to see what you really need. The 'replace it and see if it fixes the problem" method is most expensive. |
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drscope Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007 Posts: 15273 Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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I think you have a real problem being able to identify the names of parts and components.
That is going to cause you a lot of problems trying to get answers to your questions and solutions to your problems.
If you don't already have one, get yourself a service manual and brush up on the correct names of the various parts so that you cam identify them.
This is a very good manual for people just starting out:
There are normally 3 things that cause play at the wheels.
Loose wheel bearings
Worn king & link pins
Worn tie rod ends.
Wheel bearings can be adjusted to take the play out and as long as the bearing isn't coming apart or otherwise damaged, it's a pretty simple adjustment.
Link pins can be adjusted, but in reality this is seldom the cause. It's pretty common for the king & link pins to be worn and in need of replacement.
You make mention of replacing them, but your terminology leaves questions in regards to if that is what you actually did. If you did in fact replace then king & ling pins as well as their bushings, then you may in fact just need a simple link pin adjustment.
Play felt more at 3 and 9 o'clock usually means you have one or more worn tie rod ends. It would also allow the toe settings to change as the car was rolled forwards or backwards.
Damage to the spindle itself would not cause play in the wheel. _________________ Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26785 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Most likely the arms are bent.
This is a well balanced design and I have found it is possible to bend every piece of it. The arms, the beam, the king pin bracket, and the spindle itself.
You just have to take it apart and inspect each piece and replace the bent pieces.
For tools you need perhaps 2 levels and maybe a ruler. |
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Got myself some pre-assembled spindles. They came with some made in China link pins and the kings have already been reemed. It's a shame I'll have to say goodbye to the bilstiens but hopefully this should fix the problem. Will post again when I have them replaced _________________ Money is a gas, not a trip
OGK
my 63 baja daily driver
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6485278&highlight=#6485278 |
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61SNRF Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2009 Posts: 4657 Location: Whittier 90602
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I can tell you for sure, once you modify a VW in any way, you have set off a chain reaction of other modifications to compensate, and/or make some compromises as a result
Keep in mind the front end was originally designed for 560 x 15 tires and wheels.
With large, oversize tires and wheels, you're adding many kg's of extra load and stress.
As an aside, what I also see as notable about the general wear pattern of your tires is that it's also somewhat excessive near the middle of the tread. That is typically caused by running them with too much pressure. _________________ -Bruce
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. |
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drscope Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007 Posts: 15273 Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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I still don’t see a measurement of the trailing arm faces!
New steering knuckles with new king & link pins may take away some of the slop, but I don’t think they are going to fix your camber issues. Usually if they are bent enough to effect camber they are all bound up.
And while on the subject of king and link pins, Chinese pins are NOT what you want on a buggy! They break! Even on street cars they fail! German stuff is really the only way to go on this.
And can you tell us in detail just what this Bilstein stuff is you are referring to? _________________ Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch! |
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Snowking63 Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2012 Posts: 161 Location: Cerritos, CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Can you explain how to measure the trailing arm faces?
And the bilsteins are the German made pins, I think we paid almost $400 for.
But what's confusing is that there is play between the king pin carrier and king pin which tells me there's something wrong with the bushings. But we replaced the bushings very recently and correctly with bilsteins (German made). So there has to be a problem with the king pin carrier where the bushing sit in is right? _________________ Money is a gas, not a trip
OGK
my 63 baja daily driver
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6485278&highlight=#6485278 |
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drscope Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007 Posts: 15273 Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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_________________ Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch! |
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