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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Jan,
I have decided to produce a drawing for you of the form of this panel. I have looked at the profile on my car very carefully today and its more complicated than I thought. Before I produce the drawing below are some answers to your questions:
1). This panel on my car and the bonnet lid are original factory with no accidents to that area.
2). The measurements I have made start with the ruler at the bottom of the windscreen rubber seal ( my windscreen and seal are also original ) The bottom edge of the seal rests on the small 2mm? radius before that goes into the large radius on the panel.
So actually the measurement is made from that 2mm radius I can just see by the bottom edge of the seal.
3). As you know there is hardly any surface on a 356 that is flat. The same goes for the bonnet lid and the panel you have to rectify. If I lay a metal 300mm ruler ( on edge ) on the bonnet and up to the beginning of the large radius that goes up to meet the seal the ruler edge is almost flat just slight clearances you would expect.
4). The distance from the 2mm radius at the middle of the windscreen to the gap of the panel where it reaches the bonnet lid is 183mm.
5). I took much more care to try to measure the large radius. In the end I have established it to be close to 97mm which is larger than I thought yesterday and it does start by eye !! around 55mm from the 2mm radius
6). Its important to note, the distance in height from the flat surface at the beginning of the radius to the 2mm radius under the windscreen is 8mm.
Jan you show a photo of your bonnet lid with a flat ruler on it reaching to the surface under the windscreen. I think your bonnet lid seems too high for you to ever get the dimensions as my car? It seems to me the bonnet lid must be taken lower but.. that lid must line up with the tops of the fenders, I am confused here? When you layed a ruler on the top of the bonnet lid did you have an 8mm height to the 2mm radius on your defectiver panel? It looks like it almost was level with it?
I will make the drawing and post that an a few mor photos soon.
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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cooperati Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2006 Posts: 17
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Very low crown on that panel. How will you approach it Jan? mechanical planishing hammer or e/wheel?
great work, love this thread |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Jan,
As promised above the photo's and drawing.
1). View of the paper template to show where I am measuring from.
2). A view of the 2mm radius ( or near that I think ) that I used as a datum.
3). A drawing that might help. Remember the panel is not perfectly flat as also the bonnet lid has slight dips. But, the surfaces look flat till you put the rule edge on them.
With your own panel so far out of true I wonder if someone has an old one from a scrapped car? If you manage that on the existing that would be amazing. Look forward to your progress.
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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MMW Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2012 Posts: 846 Location: northern NJ
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Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Jan also remember that each car was "made by hand" so small differences will exist between cars. Just because something isn't exactly the same as another car does not make it wrong. Above all make sure it "looks" right when viewed.
What I am trying to say is if you get it close to Roy's & my dimensions & it looks right then it is right. It need not be exact.
Edit -
Curiosity got the better of me & I made a quick paper template according to Roy's drawing. My is very close except the 183mm dimension he shows is about 180mm on mine. Like I said you most likely would be hard pressed to find two exactly a like. _________________ Mic
1959 356 coupe
Missing the original engine 72488
Update - third pc. found!
Now just need the case halves.
1965 fenderless beetle |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi Roy,
many thanks for details and work you did. This will give me a good impression where I need to go with the panel. As I mentioned before, everything on the front has to be aligned simultaniously to a "smooth total outline".
Many thanks to MMW to confirm Roy's measurement and help. You're right, that I should not try to exactly rebuild your measures. The body should have a smooth outline in total and should look "organic curved" and not artificial, but exact measures.
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Jan you show a photo of your bonnet lid with a flat ruler on it reaching to the surface under the windscreen. I think your bonnet lid seems too high for you to ever get the dimensions as my car? It seems to me the bonnet lid must be taken lower but.. that lid must line up with the tops of the fenders, I am confused here? |
Roy, I think this is a part of the puzzle. I agree, that my bonnet lid probably must be taken lower. Does anybody know - or could measure at his car: If you place a straight ruler horizontally from driver to codriver fender at the gap between rear hood edge and my problematic area (like the red line on the following picture). How much is the hood edge higher than the fender tops, or is that level?
Jan
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:13 am Post subject: |
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Mic,
I will check that dimension for you today. And Mic is absolutely correct in saying no two cars are the same there are differences everywhere.
You have exactly the right idea Jan, the car's bodyline should ' flow' its that fact that made me want to own one! If it looks right to your eye then it you should be happy.
Its no easy task though to get the correct body line!
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Jan,
Have established the dimensions. I was lucky to have a long spirit level and an even longer piece of wood that was very flat!! I checked that.
1). I layed the wood across the car so the gap for the bonnet lid and the panel you need to work on was in the middle. On top of the wood I p;aced the spirit level. See photo 1.
2). The 2nd photo shows the level close up. I need the top to be level.
3). The 3rd photo shows the 52mm distance to the bottom of the wood. When I checked the other side it was 53mm very close!!! The rule bottom was on the highest part of the fender radius. In line really with the side window.
4). To keep the piece of wood straight I measured out 146mm from both of the windscreen washer jets See photo 4. I was surprised how far the middle of the hood lid was above the fenders.
So Jan, if your measurements are a long way from 52mm then maybe Mic can check. Remember my inspection process is not perfect but actually the results were so similar from one side to the other.
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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cooperati Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2006 Posts: 17
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:29 am Post subject: |
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I had a thought about this yesterday, the drawings are undoubtably v helpful but i wondered whether a flex shape pattern would give jan more knowledge about the final form.
to make you need 1" fibreglass reinforced packing tape, and talcum powder
1. put talc on the car body, liberal amounts.
2. do a layer of tape in one axis
3.cover with another layer of tape in a perpendicular axis
4. remove
The beauty of this is the pattern fill transmit the dimensions / relationships exactly, when jan is making the panel the fsp can be used to keep checking he panel is taking the same shape. the crown is low and i think getting that right is going to be hard.
Roy, maybe you could do one and pop it in the post? |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Hi cooperati, I think all these measurement of Roy and Mic are good enough and really helpful to start reforming. After planishing the metal area I will put everything temporarily together and see the outlines. Will see, how it works. If there are still problems, I have to see what kind of and how to deal with them.
Will bring the panel to a friends workshop with Eckhold, planishing hammer and everything else you need. He is really familar with these machines and hopefully can help solcing the problem.
Will keep you informed, Jan _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:04 am Post subject: |
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In parallel I finished preparing the front outer wheel wells.
First I had to repair the rubber door stop holding bracket on both sides. See pictures of driver side, codriver side similar procedure:
Built a replacement.
You have to choose the correct "ribs and dots" version of the front outer wheel wells for your model year - mine is 4 ribs and 2 dots.
The one I bought was a little bit too long at the lower end and in a wrong angle. So I had to rebent it to correct dimension.
Unfortunately the inner connecting edge of this panel to the trunk panel is for later B/C style. Had to fill that triangular area.
Fits good at the body now. Additionally I hat to flatten the upper edge a little bit to get enough space to the fender underside.
Same procedure on codriver side. The outer vertical edge, where the rear fender edge is fixed overlapping has to end around 5mm "inwards" from the horizontal outer doorskin line. Easier to bend outwards a little bit, than to force inwards, if it ends too much outwards. Not easy to explain, but you can see the gap between outer wheel well and front of rocker panel.
Ready for primer and welding.
Could be, that the rear edge needs to be cut back a little bit, to get the final gap to the front door edge later.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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Jan,
I guess its possible you already have the 356A Factory body dimensions. I attach 2 photos which show the dimensions. I can zoom in on my PC but not sure if you can direct on the forum? The dimensions are much clearer if you can. ( I could e-mail you them if you would like. )
I have been looking again at that ' cowling' form ( I think thats the correct term for this panel ) its just not easy to reproduce. The weld lines are shown on the drawing. But its complex. Again I would see if an old one is anywhere available. I scaled the drawing at 43:1 and the dimension I got of 52mm from the top of the hood to the top of the fender ties in well with the drawing.
Or is it your intention to re-work the existing cowling it did not look rusty?
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Jan,
To enlarge the drawing: JUST LEFT CLICK WITH THE MOUSE ON THE DRAWING AND IT ENLARGES IT PERFECT!!
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Roy, thank for the pictures.
I have the workshop manual, but you never know, if the drawings really represent the reality. I will re-work my cowling (good to have a word for that part ). A friend already planished it in his workshop with the correct machines. Will see, how it fits at the car and with everything around.
Jan _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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A little job for the media blaster and afterwards I used my spraygun for some primer paint job. I think not many 356 have a primered area behind the upper dashboard.
Will weld the outer wheel wells in place next.
Jan
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2344 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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The Brits, and others, call the cowl "the scuttle". I seriously doubt that the trailing edge of the hood needs to be lowered, as the firewall is pretty stout. _________________ Jack Staggs
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
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The outer wheel wells are finally in place, welded, grinded, primered ... finished.
Removed primer on welding areas ...
... drilled some holes for welding, because it's very narrow in that area for the spot welding gun (speaker bowl, door stop bracket, ...)
Finally welded ...
... and grinded, drilled and filed the door stop bolt long holes ...
... and prepared for primer ...
... painted in primer both sides.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Back in the garage again. After some holidays and working on other projects I was working in the garage on the car again.
Next project is lock posts, B-pillars. Outer double edge is rusty. Top edge is broken also and lower area need replacement as well.
Good to have a nice and solid edge on inner fender
Replaced the whole B-Pillar and temporary fixation.
Co-Driver side was same problematic areas.
I decided to replace just the outer double flange edge and not the whole panel, because the top area was in better condition than on driver side. Needs to be more flat at the end, but for orientation it is okay.
Temporary adjustment of rear fender area.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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The doors are aligned and hinges fixed and are the center for further adjustments. Important to leave one half of the door hinge mounted to the body and just remove door pins. This ensures the door sitting in the (nearly) same position every time.
Started to rebuild the rear edge of front fender on codriver side.
It's not so easy to do it with the door mounted in, so I measured the distance of front edge of door with a long ruler from a tape marked line on lock post. I marked numbered steps on a tape behind and in front of the door to align the ruler. Measuring exactly horizontally is not critical, just important to take same numbers on both sides.
After measuring the front edge of the door, I started to align the front fender repair panel to that measures plus additional 5-6mm gap.
Finally adjusted and fixed with screws and clamps.
Method works great, as you can see on front gap after remounting door. This is before any further adaption. Needs to be finally smoothened and egalized.
Rear gap is okay to put some final lead on and model exact gaps after welding.
Codriver door sits in place - now it's time to finally weld the panels in place.
_________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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roy mawbey Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 397 Location: Sussex England
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Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Jan,
Just amazing I have in the past cut, welded and leaded a lock post repair but only upto the edge of the double curvature. Although it turned out fine because I had datum edges to work to it was still a very difficult job for me to get right.
I find the speed you are working to complete these jobs and the methods you use to keep the integrity of the body line very impressive. You deserved a holiday Jan, doing what you have been attempting I would have needed one just to keep my sanity
Great photo's
Roy _________________ Roy
RHD356A super75 106954 |
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jan_t4 Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2012 Posts: 146 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Roy, thanks for your support again
I did some minor tasks, but these have to be done also. Takes a little longer time, because these 3D-replace panels have to be built from scratch. The originals were good enough to work as templates.
These two inner fender strengthening brackets at the B-pillar need to be replaced (old picture before replacing inner fender).
This is what I used for. A heavy metal straightening plate, a heay metal tube to form mild curvatures for 3D-panels, a sand bag and heavy hammer with round tips.
First I hammered the original template flat to cut a new piece and started forming it ... test fitting ...
Making some holes at the edge for welding and preparing with weldable rust primer in red ... and removed Epoxy at the welding holes ...
... finally welded in place ... This is just hand job without any special (professional) tools. Just start and try ... you will see what to do automatically.
Same procedure on other side. Need to replace both parts ...
... on the backside you can see the weld spots.
Needs some Epoxy Primer and ... one less position on the ToDo-List _________________ -------------------------------------------
My 356A T2 Resto.Blog: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579964 |
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