| Author |
Message |
Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9641
Location: Pearl River, NY
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:22 am Post subject: |
 |
|
What a remarkable photo and group! A 1980's (?) reunion of Dr. Porsche's Volkswagen development team... Ferry Porsche is at the wheel, Herbert Kaes 3rd from left; Hans Klauser 4th from left. Can anybody identify the others? Body designer Erwin Komenda passed away in '66, Karl Rabe in '68. Maybe Kales, Froehlich, Mickl, Zahradnik?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
MDKG
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Great idea a seperate thread for #3!
Here's some more info on 38/03 from a post from the 38/06 thread (page 47)
| Joerg Fischer wrote: |
Hello from Germany again,
when we are talking about Aufbaunummern, Chassis-Nummern and Kennzeichen (License plates) we should try to think about the times back then. The VW38s were prototypes used for testing, driving and showing. From time to time those vehicles were taken back for improvements or after accidents, so swapping Aufbau (body) and Karosserie (chassis) probably happened once in a while.
And when World War 2 was all around in Europe many available vehicles were "officially" taken from their owners to be used for military purpose. Again it was no problem to swap Aufbau and Karosserie (and license plates)...
In German literature you can find a few stories what happened to the very first VW (Björn and Christian of course know a lot more about all this, so they may correct me if they want).
VW 38/03 was a "Versuchswagen" at Porsche Stuttgart (licensed IIIA-43003). They drove about 400km a day (!) under hard testing conditions. VW 38/03 even had a turnover near Danzig (now Polish territory) on the Autobahn at 100 km/h, but when they managed to get it back on the wheels, they discovered no major damage).
In 1940 VW 38/03 has been brought to Porsche Berlin, where it has been repaired and modified (!). When gasoline was rare, VW 38/03 got its Holzgasgenerator (wood carburetor), where they cut a hole into the front bonnet.
As the allied troops got closer to Berlin, VW 38/03 was disassembled and the parts have been stored at several locations in Berlin. The body was discovered by the allied troops and has been confiscated. Later the body could be bought back for 275 Reichsmark and they reassembled VW 38/03. The front bonnet then had been exchanged for a series production part.
After war VW 38/03 was used for regular transportation (remember: back then it was just a car!). His owner took part at the VW 100.000-km-Treffen in Erbach in 1952, where VW realized VW 38/03 and bought it for commercial purpose. With 2 engines VW 38/03 has been driven a total of 485.000km since then.
VW 38/31 - Hitlers Cabriolet - has been brought from Berlin to Obersalzberg after bombs started falling on Berlin. It has been discovered an confiscated by an US Lieutenant in 1945. He gave it to a Geman engineer on June 29, 1945 in exchange for a lot of golden jewelry. The engineer drove it about 250.000km and sold it in 1951 for 2500 DM. The new owner drove another 180.000km and sold it to a used car dealer in Mannheim for 600 DM. It has been repaired and sold to a couple in Viernheim (near Mannheim). Still being "just a car" they drove it all over Europe and gave it in commission to MAHAG (Munich) in 1956. MAHAG later sold it to the VW factory.
VW 1-000003 (licensed IIIA-43028) from the VW39-series has been discovered 1948 in Berlin demolished and without engine. It has been bought by Raffay/Hamburg (shown in the pictures quoted below) and restored in the fifties (as stated earlier in this thread).
VW 1-000001 (the first car of the VW 39 series) was in poor shape in 1941, so it got a new beige paintjob (former grey). Later it became grey again to take part at the Rußlandfeldzug (the german Russia-offense). In Riga (Latvia) - the city where our thread-starter Undis comes from! - it broke down with an axle-damage and fell on its side in a bomb crater. It has been repaired and went back to the VW factory in 1941 to be overhauled for the next war operation. In summer 1942 VW 1-000001 went to Charkow (Russia) to the 6th army, which went to Stalingrad. Since then it is lost.
Back to the issue: when you read those stories, you probably can imagine that records are not always accurate, and why there could be differences in body-, license- and chassis-numbers, and how the VW prototypes are spread all over the world (remember that WW2 took also part in Africa...), and that discussions on "what's correct and what's not" on the prototypes is somewhat obsolete (due to the constant testing, improving and repairing)...
According to my list, we have 35 prototypes from 1935-37 (V1 + V2 + 3x V3 + 30 VW30) and 54 prototypes from 1938-40 (3x VW 303 + 33x VW 38 + 18x VW 39).
So if we talk about #52 and count from V1, we are at chassis number
38/15 (since 38/14 is missing=Kübelwagen?), a Typ 60L.
If we do not count the V1-V3, we are at chassis number 38/09, another Typ 60L Versuchswagen. If we do not count the V303 we... - and so on. And there might have been bodies (aufbauten) in between with no chassis...
I am pretty sure that there are lists/records, where Aufbaunummern und Fahrgestellnummern are assigned, and I am also sure Christian got them. So let's have a big party at Hessisch Oldendorf and see what it's all about...
Thanks for reading and best regards
Jörg |
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this also no.3?
and isn't this no.3 at the Erbach treffen in 1952 as mentioned above by Joerg?
only 14 years old so like said before quite remarkable that VW alrready saw the marketing value. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RichOakley
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004
Posts: 1108
Location: Midlands, UK
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MDKG wrote: |
Great idea a seperate thread for #3!
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this also no.3?
and isn't this no.3 at the Erbach treffen in 1952 as mentioned above by Joerg?
only 14 years old so like said before quite remarkable that VW alrready saw the marketing value. |
Both of those pictures are of the Raffay 1939 car and not VW38/03
Bjoern- did you hear any more news about the Raffay car after the fire?
_________________
1947 Beetle
1956 RHD Karmann Cabrio
1956 RHD Beetle
1957 RHD Pitt-Moto Type 2 Camper
1959 RHD Beetle
1966 RHD Type 3 Fastback
1976 RHD Sun Beetle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MDKG
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RichOakley wrote: |
| MDKG wrote: |
Great idea a seperate thread for #3!
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this also no.3?
and isn't this no.3 at the Erbach treffen in 1952 as mentioned above by Joerg?
only 14 years old so like said before quite remarkable that VW alrready saw the marketing value. |
Both of those pictures are of the Raffay 1939 car and not VW38/03
Bjoern- did you hear any more news about the Raffay car after the fire? |
Could you maybe clarify a bit more Rich? Why did they call it no. 3 in the first pic? I thougt they continued counting with VW39 and did not start over. And what about the Erbach story does this mean both VW38/03 and VW39/"03" where there or VW38/03 was never there? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
usariemen
Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 1745
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MDKG wrote: |
| Why did they call it no. 3 in the first pic? |
There is prototyp #3 and #3 from the production line.
_________________
Master of my domain! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MDKG
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: The Netherlands
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| usariemen wrote: |
| MDKG wrote: |
| Why did they call it no. 3 in the first pic? |
There is prototyp #3 and #3 from the production line. |
Thanks for your comment usariemen but I am even more confused now  . So was/is the Raffay car a VW39, of which I understood this were still Vorserie cars made by Reutter (so then it is no. 3 of the 2nd Vorserie?), or the 3rd KDF made at the factory in Wolfburg (=production)  ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
usariemen
Samba Member
Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 1745
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
I might get corrected but as far as I knew it is just type 60 Nr.3 made in Wolfsburg.
_________________
Master of my domain! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blue Baron
VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006
Posts: 24059
Location: Southeast USA
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Here is a road test of the VW38 03 by Gordon Wilkins, one of the original British journalists who reported on the KdF-Wagen in 1939, taken from the July 1968 issue of Mechanix Illustrated magazine. (The issue also has a road test of the new Autostick Beetle by iconic auto writer Tom McCahill.)
_________________
We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D-train
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2007
Posts: 1455
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
living in australia we didnt get the vw till around 54, while all this had been happening nearly 20years already! such a good thing to be reading and see the history and life that the 1st prototypes and other early cars had.
really wish we had this early type of history to go searching for here.
_________________
shiny paint doesnt make it worth any more |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blue Baron
VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006
Posts: 24059
Location: Southeast USA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
More Old No. 3 photos
_________________
We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blue Baron
VW Aficionado
Joined: June 16, 2006
Posts: 24059
Location: Southeast USA
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Old No. 3 appears in a VW ad.
_________________
We are striving for perfection, to make our cars run forever, if possible.
Heinz Nordhoff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
overrestored
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2005
Posts: 726
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Björn Schewe wrote: |
It is the same like if you are restoring a 1999 New Beetle today. |
Interesting that you mention this Bjorn... as I have heard a rumour that there is a black concept one New Beetle prototype... one of the first 5 prototypes that actually runs... which was supposed to be destroyed with the others after testing but quietly disappeared on it's way to be destroyed... and then quickly made it's way into private hands in a hush hush sort of way... and is quietly waiting to re-emerge at some point in the distant future when everyone's memories are faded. It is still covered in dirt and said to still have it's black out tape over the identifying logos etc from the desert testing.
good thing I don't care about new beetles... or I would be chasing this one!
_________________
some cars
some bicycles
some old skateboards
One cool crazy cat
a yard full of fruit trees
26 chairs for some reason
a crapload of old shoes
a lot of books on history of the Mexican Ranchos
200+ kamax bolts... stacked in rows |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jvulich
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2010
Posts: 215
Location: Clovis
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| It would be interesting from a historical standpoint, especially if it makes it to the autostadt and put on display with #3. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undis
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 1396
Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting to see some of the old photos of #3 as it was before the last restoration. There should be more photos out there!
Here are some pictures of the way the car looks like now.
A production split H apron is used and as mentioned previously there are wire harness clips on the firewall. The hinges are the real deal and they have added those small rubber squares for that authentic look.
Going by the position of the cranks, a regular split door.
Regular split front apron, one piece bumper, trunk seal and ID plate on the "KdF ears" as per later cars.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undis
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 1396
Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Some more details.
The dash and the under-dash area are authentic details that survived from the original car. They were a great reference during restoration of #6 as those were the exact parts that #6 was missing.
Another surviving detail is the rear window that was transplanted from the original car. Again this was used to get the window right for #6 as most of this area was missing.
Another look at the trunk area. The hood is a regular unit going by the bolt-on hinges (they should be welded to the hood), however the back of the dash is the real thing.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undis
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 1396
Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
allsidius
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 1475
Location: Norway
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
What happened to the IIIA-43003 licence number? This car is not one of the cornerstone cars, the IIIA-42802 of the V303 series. It was the black sunroof car, this car clearly does not have a sunroof. Why put a significant but wrong plate on a car, muddying up the identity of the vehicle? Is the VW organisation really so careless of the history, that they think we would not notice? Or was the car reregistered at some later point? Still it should have retained the old 43003 number.
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stetoppingphoto
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2012
Posts: 475
Location: Darwen
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
A really interesting read this, great info there Undis.
_________________
stetoppingphoto |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kapt. Q
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2011
Posts: 256
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| allsidius wrote: |
| What happened to the IIIA-43003 licence number? This car is not one of the cornerstone cars, the IIIA-42802 of the V303 series. It was the black sunroof car, this car clearly does not have a sunroof. Why put a significant but wrong plate on a car, muddying up the identity of the vehicle? Is the VW organisation really so careless of the history, that they think we would not notice? Or was the car reregistered at some later point? Still it should have retained the old 43003 number. |
Lol, this is the same 'museum/institution' that displays a 1944 type 166 in dunkelgrau, a colour that it never was and also the 1946 type 87/7 in the same colour when it should be British army green, if they don't care about these major points do you think they worry about the details? As you say they don't care, that much is obvious. Sad they palm these things off as historicly correct to a generally unknowing public.
Cheers! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undis
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2006
Posts: 1396
Location: Riga, Latvia & Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am surprised and disappointed by the thinking: close enough is good enough - just like slapping some racing stripes and a “53” decal on a superbeetle and calling it Herbie. Maybe it’s something to do with how popular perception works.
The last restauration did involve plenty of detail changes in the right direction – some of them obscure like correcting the bodywork around the inner rear quarter panels both sides of the rear window, yet a glaring mistake such as getting the plate wrong seem to have fallen through the cracks. What if it was intentional? What if it is to allude the common viewer of it being one of the three cars from the cornerstone laying ceremony.
By no means have I wanted to put down the work done by the person who did the restauration. He must have followed strict orders from the owners (VW Museum). The workmanship that’s been done is very good. This being a commissioned restauration I’m sure the restorer had little say on which details will be corrected and how and what will be left as is.
It was great to see this car in person at Hessisch Oldendorf last year and I have to say it really looks good; however car #6 was just a few metres away and one could not help but make comparisons. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
