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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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 Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:40 am Post subject: 74 SB Final Drive Flange Seal Replacement |
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OK, folks. PO had allowed gear oil to leak for some time all around the the underside, and I believe that the final drive flange seals are the cause. I still have the engine and tranny in the car, but the IRS drive axles are out (serviced all four CV joints). Parts are coming, but I'm looking for opinions on whether or not this (seal replacement) is something that can be done with the tranny still in the car. There's not a lot of "wiggle room" in that area for things like gear pullers/pushers (if needed), snap ring pliers for the circlips, seal pullers or (new) seal drivers. I'd rather not pull the engine (again) and tranny to do this job. So if anyone has replaced these seals while the tranny is still on the car (without losing his mind, religion, spouse, hair, etc.  ) please let me know. Thanks, everyone.
Steve
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First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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I asked that same question a number of months ago--and got no answer.
Tim |
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Donahoe wrote: |
I asked that same question a number of months ago--and got no answer.
Tim |
Is this something that late-model owners don't care to do? Is it something best left to professionals? Did you replace the seals yourself, Tim?
There are folks on this board who seem to know everything else about ACVWs; have they not encountered this before? I read several threads on the Bus forum about this, but late-model boards seem to be silent.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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wish I could help.. I've smashed a couple of CVs  but in 25 years and about 10 gearboxes I have never had one leak... |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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My question was along these lines:
"Has anyone replaced their transmission seals, the ones on the sides of the transmission where the CV joints connect? Can it be done with the transmission in the car?"
The above was paraphrased, but that was about it.
I think I got one answer where the poster said that it was easier with the transmission out of the car.
However, I seem to remember taking out the plug seals and replacing those (I believe it was in 1989). This did not include the big "O" ring, or anything. Just the plug in the center. This, I did with the transmission in the car. Replacing the plugs stopped transmission fluid from entering the CV's. I had the CV's out to replace boots at the time, of course.
Tim |
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Donahoe wrote: |
My question was along these lines:
"Has anyone replaced their transmission seals, the ones on the sides of the transmission where the CV joints connect? Can it be done with the transmission in the car?"
The above was paraphrased, but that was about it.
I think I got one answer where the poster said that it was easier with the transmission out of the car.
However, I seem to remember taking out the plug seals and replacing those (I believe it was in 1989). This did not include the big "O" ring, or anything. Just the plug in the center. This, I did with the transmission in the car. Replacing the plugs stopped transmission fluid from entering the CV's. I had the CV's out to replace boots at the time, of course.
Tim |
By "plug seals", I assume that you're talking about the flange cap seals that cover the ends of the final drive shafts. I agree that those are relatively easy to replace, but the flange seals (fit between the drive shaft and the transaxle case [right side of SSCs] or differential cover [left side of SSCs]) are much more entailed. You have to remove the cap seals, remove the cir clip and spring washer, then remove the flange before you can access the flange seals.
Hopefully someone with experience in this operation will chime in with advice on whether or not this can be done with the tranny in the car. 
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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andk5591
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Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16758
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:26 am Post subject: |
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Man - I wish I could help....Trying to remember which car I did this on.....The more I think about it - I did it with the tranny out - But I seem to recall that it wasnt hard. it was just a matter of replacing that cap seal and swapping the seal. I dont see why it couldnt be done in the car. I agree would be a lot easier with it out.
The cap seal was the thing that gave me the most trouble. Don't remember exactly why, but have a couple extras on hand.
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
Man - I wish I could help....Trying to remember which car I did this on.....The more I think about it - I did it with the tranny out - But I seem to recall that it wasnt hard. it was just a matter of replacing that cap seal and swapping the seal. I dont see why it couldnt be done in the car. I agree would be a lot easier with it out.
The cap seal was the thing that gave me the most trouble. Don't remember exactly why, but have a couple extras on hand. |
Thanks for replying. The job isn't too difficult...if you can get to the seals without being a contortionist  . Between the heater boxes and heater control cables, the frame forks and shocks, things are a bit crowded in that area. I agree that doing the job with the tranny removed would be fairly easy, but I just don't want to pull the engine again then pull the tranny.  I sure hope one of the older sages on this site has some words of wisdom.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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Multi69s
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:28 am Post subject: |
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Bump to keep it current.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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swhitcomb
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Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 5673
Location: Inwood WV
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:16 am Post subject: |
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I did it a few years ago on my wife's 73 Thing. Engine and trans installed. The old ones leaked bad. Probably had been for a long time and no one knew how to change them. It's was extremely easy. The hardest part was getting the seal out. I ran a deck screw in slightly and pulled on it until they were out.
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Last edited by swhitcomb on Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mainexile
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Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| swhitcomb wrote: |
| I did it a few years ago on my wife's 73 Thing. Engine and trans installed. The old ones leaked bad. Probably had been for a long time and no one knew how to change them. It's was extremely easy. The hardest part was getting the seal out. I ran a deck screw in slightly and pulled on it until the were out. |
Thanks for the info. It's good to know that this can be done with engine and tranny still in the car. Parts should be here tomorrow, and I'll make an attempt then.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Well. the Pony Express couldn't manage to get the parts delivered on Saturday (order left the main sorting facility 50 miles away at 5:00 am but couldn't get here by noon...go figure), so parts didn't get sorted at my post office until 10:00 this morning. I can't start in today due to medical appointments, so tomorrow I'll begin my quest to replace the final drive flange seals and caps with the engine and tranny in the car. I'll try to post a progress update tomorrow evening, but if I don't it's because I'm either too tired or have become so frustrated that I decided to torch the damn thing with me in it. 
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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60ragtop
Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7800
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Yes, it can be done in the vehicle, no big deal. Making a mountain out of a molehill
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Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
| tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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| sb001 wrote: |
| maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Main, why not record with photos, your work on this project.
Since so few have done it--and we know more that a few have leaks in the vicinity--it might make for a good Sticky.
Then we can all scream for ice cream!
Tim |
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Donahoe wrote: |
Main, why not record with photos, your work on this project.
Since so few have done it--and we know more that a few have leaks in the vicinity--it might make for a good Sticky.
Then we can all scream for ice cream!
Tim |
Tim, I would love to be able to post pix of the process...but as I've told other members, my digital photography skills are slightly worse than my analog photography skills, which are horrible. The only camera I have is the one on my iPhone, and I can't seem to take a decent picture with that thing either. I'll see what I can do, but I can't make any promises. Sorry, I'm old and never caught up with the digital tech stuff. Hell, our first telephone didn't even have a dial, let alone a keypad. We just picked up the handset, waited for the operator to say "Number Please?", and gave her the four digit number we wanted to call. Never could get my old VCR to stop flashing 12:00 either.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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Tim Donahoe
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Joined: December 08, 2012
Posts: 11740
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Main, then just tell us exactly what you did ... if you want to jump into the water, first, that is .
Tim |
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| 60ragtop wrote: |
| Yes, it can be done in the vehicle, no big deal. Making a mountain out of a molehill |
Wellllll....your "molehill" is turning into my "mountain". Six hours spent on my back, working in a space that IS NOT conducive to freedom of movement, and I still haven't finished one side yet. If I weren't this far into it, I'd probably bite the bullet and pull the engine and tranny.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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60ragtop
Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006
Posts: 7800
Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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sorry, you are having such a hard time with it, I have done this job numerous times and I would not got thru the hassle of pulling the engine and trans to do it. For me it is just as easy to do it in the car.
What is fighting you?
_________________
Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
| tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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| sb001 wrote: |
| maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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mainexile
Samba Member
Joined: May 20, 2014
Posts: 174
Location: Strafford, NH
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Donahoe wrote: |
Main, then just tell us exactly what you did ... if you want to jump into the water, first, that is .
Tim |
First, see my reply above to 60ragtop.
I already had removed the drive axles to service three of the CV joints (had to replace one), so those aren't in the equation. Next, I removed the axle cap seal (only took an hour to do that  ) - the cap seal tore apart in the center (old and brittle...like me) leaving the outer rim still intact. Very difficult to position any tool to get leverage, but I finally got my Craftsman Seal Puller under the lip and pulled the cap out. Next was the circlip, which, again working at strange angles, finally came out after another hour, and flew across the garage to places unknown as yet. Now came the most fun - removing the flange. It was solidly attached to the final drive axle, so I had to improvise a wheel puller to take it off (another hour). Then I used the seal puller to remove the flange seal, and that only took about a half hour. At this point, I cannot stress enough that unless you are REALLY nimble and flexible, DO NOT attempt this with the tranny in the car.
I cleaned the flange and circlip with parts washing solvent, and set out to install the new flange seal (I used the 15mm thick seal from Elring instead of the 9mm one from Sabo) The seal pushed partway in by hand, but I still need to completely seat it. I had bought a 1.5" to 1.25" galvanized pipe reducer fitting to use as a seal driver because the O.D. of the 1.5" end was fractionally smaller than the O.D. of the new seal. However, there is no room to both hole the reducer and hit it with a hammer...or anything else for that matter. So, I tried to fabricate a wheel pusher to force the seal into place using the reducer. The final drive axle inside the tranny case has an internal threaded center which, according to a thread on the bus forum, is M10X1.25. I had purchased two bolts with nuts for this very purpose...but the internal threads are actually M10X1.5. So, my homemade wheel pusher (which will probably work fine) is off duty until tomorrow when I can get some M10X1.5 bolts. All of the wasted efforts trying to install the new seal ate up the remainder of the six hours.
So the bottom line is: I will probably be able to finish the right side and overhaul the left side tomorrow when I'll also try to take some pix. Right now, I'm gonna see what I have in the liquor locker 'cuz I have a low alcohol warning light flashing in my brain, and I can't think of anything else I'd rather do.
_________________
First, make sure it will stop; then make sure it will go; finally, make it pretty.
1974 Super Beetle Convertible, 1600 DP.
2016 Honda Accord Coupe (wife's)
2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab (mine)
1978 Grady White Pacer 174 Mercruiser 470 |
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