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Busbodger
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2012
Posts: 116
Location: Small Town, Tennessee
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 Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Why not add sensors to the radiator outlets to measure the temp of the water as it exits the radiator? Little aluminum blocks. Easy to fab. If the water is too hot, the fan runs... If your sensor is on the engine block, it might not be a good measure of the water temps and what the rads and fans need to be doing.
Have been lurking and following along. Great project. I am hugely impressed. I want you to succeed b/c eventually I might want a Subbie or VW TDI powered baywindow. I am currently working my way through a Corvair powered late baywindow. Love the sounds of an aircooled flat six and am ready to do whatever it takes to make it work. Engine and Corvair transaxle (4-speed) are in, just not driving it yet. Lots of paint to do. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:56 am Post subject: |
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has anyone read this thread? I have tried every combination I could come up with. THE BUS COOLS FINE....UNTIL YOU HIT 50-55 mph
trust me, i wanted this to work
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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curtis4085
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2011
Posts: 4806
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
has anyone read this thread? I have tried every combination I could come up with. THE BUS COOLS FINE....UNTIL YOU HIT 50-55 mph
trust me, i wanted this to work |
I'm still pulling for you brother.
Have you tried contacting the Wizzard to see if he has any advice?
_________________
Special Thanks to:
Headflow Masters - Vista, CA
www.headflowmasters.com |
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1975 Kombi
Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2007
Posts: 2452
Location: Acton, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Do the fans push the air up and out of the bus at the vents on the top back corners? If so at 55mph would the air pressure coming back down neutralize the flow and stop the cooling? Sorry I only had a chance to read the last 2 pages due to lack of time but will read the rest later.
_________________
Brett
“He’s decieving you boy! Reach into his pocket and take what he’s got.” Mr. Crabbs.
75 Westy auto
03 Jetta TDI
71 SB
74 Westy
Licensed pilot (single engine land VFR)
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Rust In Pieces: 72 Bug, 73 Bug, 81 Rabbit LS D 2D, 83 Rabbit D 2D, 84 Jetta TD GL, 85 Jetta D, 68 Z28 RS 302, 91 Passat 16v |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| curtis4085 wrote: |
I'm still pulling for you brother.
Have you tried contacting the Wizzard to see if he has any advice? |
I did attempt to contact jake raby. I remember way back when he offered a phone service for X.XX $ per hour on advice, but I think he was only doing that for CS customers.
I am sure jake is reading this, probably laughing at all my attempts. or maybe not, maybe he can relate to hours of trial and error. either way, jake is a good dude and I can understand why he didn't reply to me. and yes, I offered to pay him....
way back when he was doing the swap for his customer, he did tell me what he can get the Subaru's temperature to run at. and as I promised him back then, I won't tell, but that is my target range.
I had tried to reverse fans etc, to no great benefit. I just had some pretty promising results with the under floor radiator. like, very promising. going to go for another test loop now.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Have you tried contacting the Wizzard to see if he has any advice? |
The Wizard is in the middle of building yet another R&D/ Training Facility in "OZ" and has zero extra time to do more than fulfill commitments to those on the engine wait list.
Sorry fellas.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Mild-Core
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Have you tried contacting the Wizzard to see if he has any advice? |
The Wizard is in the middle of building yet another R&D/ Training Facility in "OZ" and has zero extra time to do more than fulfill commitments to those on the engine wait list.
Sorry fellas. |
Unhelpful post is not helpful. LOL
Skills, I got together with 55Superbeetle yesterday to try to figure out how much bias my crappy SunPro gauge has to understand how my cooling setup is really performing. We logged temps on the highway at "normal" driving speeds, keeping up with regular traffic. Basically my gauge reads 8-14 degrees high, depending on where it is in the range. Oh, and I put my license plate stand offs back on so the hole in my deck lid is open now. Other than that I have changed nothing on my setup.
Ambient temperature was 95 degrees yesterday when we did the test. At 190 degrees on the gauge the actual engine temp from the microsquirt was 182. At 200 degrees on the gauge the MS was reading 191, and at 210 I was getting 196. Engine speeds were 4500-4700 rpm, we were obviously winding it out pretty good, passing at will and keeping up with traffic. We never cracked 200 degrees. I assume my fans were running.
Did you ever try adding scoops? I consider them essential to making this work. I want to see what I get if I make a new set of "earz" that are just an inch wider. I know you've already torn down the dual rad setup but man, I really wish this would have worked out for you. Bummed. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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hey mild-core
well, the under floor radiator worked real well. around town, it would not crack 177/180.
on the highway, I never saw above 196 either.
for the hell of it, I switched my fan on, and the temp dropped pretty fast to 188, which tells me there is still room for improvement for the under floor set up too.
sadly, I am at a crossroad with what to do. I have the fan under the radiator. when I moved it from the top to the bottom, just the simple act of doing that got me 10* I was on the highway for 30+ miles, and no issues.
my fear of the engine bay setup is the fans will constantly run. I am not opposed to that, but the duty cycle of these fans is what, 2 minutes? they are not meant to run constantly
the issues I had with the in bay radiators were several. I think my 2.5 hi comp cammed engine may be a part of the problem. but boy, does she haul ass.
today was in the low 90's here and humid as a horny housewife's crotch. I am happy I got it under control, but not how I have to do it.
*sigh* I give up....
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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secretsubmariner
Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011
Posts: 3104
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
today was in the low 90's here and humid as a horny housewife's crotch.
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OH MY GOD!
That may be the funniest thing I have EVER read on the Samba, EVER.
_________________
-Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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glad I could make someone laugh. the way I am feeling now is
"skills garage, happiness comes here to die" 
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51152
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Early cars and airplanes had radiators fashioned from many rows of tubing along the outer skin, ever considered a full length aluminum roof rack with large diameter rear legs and crossbars? 
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Mild-Core
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
hey mild-core
well, the under floor radiator worked real well. around town, it would not crack 177/180.
on the highway, I never saw above 196 either.
for the hell of it, I switched my fan on, and the temp dropped pretty fast to 188, which tells me there is still room for improvement for the under floor set up too.
sadly, I am at a crossroad with what to do. I have the fan under the radiator. when I moved it from the top to the bottom, just the simple act of doing that got me 10* I was on the highway for 30+ miles, and no issues.
my fear of the engine bay setup is the fans will constantly run. I am not opposed to that, but the duty cycle of these fans is what, 2 minutes? they are not meant to run constantly
the issues I had with the in bay radiators were several. I think my 2.5 hi comp cammed engine may be a part of the problem. but boy, does she haul ass.
today was in the low 90's here and humid as a horny housewife's crotch. I am happy I got it under control, but not how I have to do it.
*sigh* I give up.... |
Yeah, I really do think that the frankenmotor combo with cams is not doing you any favors in terms of heat output, even though the grin factor is probably pretty awesome. I always knew if this configuration failed miserably I could change to underbelly cooling since that setup is pretty well proven. Of course it's still a compromise because the radiator is not on the front of the car with air flow coming in perpendicular to it, so the temps dropping when your fan came on makes a lot of sense.
Any pics of this new setup or are you too defeated to show it off?
I'm thinking that the re-geared six rib transmission is going to help me out tremendously. The reduced RPM and the resulting reduction in heat output might get me to where I need to be to avoid relying on my fans. On the highway test yesterday was I running at 4500+ rpm. Imagine if I was rolling 2500-3000 rpm at those speeds? I need to save up some money...
Jeff and I have bounced ideas around about hydraulic fans hooked up to the power steering pump on the EJ22, like the cooling system on a city bus. That would take care of the duty cycle issue for the fans. But to be honest, I am totally cool with my setup as it is now. I still want to play with it some more but really, for how I use my bus, it's been working fine. |
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Sloride
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2002
Posts: 926
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Mild-Core
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| Early cars and airplanes had radiators fashioned from many rows of tubing along the outer skin, ever considered a full length aluminum roof rack with large diameter rear legs and crossbars? |
Busdaddy, have you seen this one? It's my buddy's bus.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...highlight= |
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Mild-Core
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Sloride wrote: |
So you are running the fan under and pulling the air through? I have my fans on top pushing air through. I have debated to moving them under thinking the fans themselves are getting in the way of airflow.
I don't like the fact that on hot days and long highway runs the fans are on almost constantly to hold the temps to below 200. |
I think you're better off running them pulling air through the radiator rather than pushing. The fans are obstructing the flow to the radiator when they are not running. |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51152
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Mild-Core wrote: |
| Sloride wrote: |
So you are running the fan under and pulling the air through? I have my fans on top pushing air through. I have debated to moving them under thinking the fans themselves are getting in the way of airflow.
I don't like the fact that on hot days and long highway runs the fans are on almost constantly to hold the temps to below 200. |
I think you're better off running them pulling air through the radiator rather than pushing. The fans are obstructing the flow to the radiator when they are not running. |
Agreed, why do most manufacturers locate the fans behind the rad when there's often plenty of room ahead? As for duty cycle many run constantly when the A/C is on as well and they are always in the hot air from the rad anyways, I suspect they can handle it.
The rack on that splitty is interesting and definitely gets the action up away from the hot rocky road.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Mild-Core
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah my fans are OEM so they should be pretty much the best that's available for the price.
As far as DTA's cooling setup, it works really well, he's driven to Los Angeles and back as well as a trip up to Portland, OR. He painted his radiator box coleman green and hopefully some vinyl Coleman logos will end up on it to help it blend in with his other roof rack junk lol. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Sloride wrote: |
So you are running the fan under and pulling the air through? I have my fans on top pushing air through. I have debated to moving them under thinking the fans themselves are getting in the way of airflow.
I don't like the fact that on hot days and long highway runs the fans are on almost constantly to hold the temps to below 200. |
yes. as much as I didn't want to, I placed it there with great results.
I will post some photos of it soon. it's not pretty (yet) but 100% functional.
I wanted it on the top too, but the reality is, the beam and the exhaust are still lower than the fan. I have 7" of clearance with the fan under it, 5 at the exhaust.
now I am battling a code for the IAC, when it acts up, it runs like 100% shit.
I swear to God this fucking bus hates my guts. it's like a super model girlfriend, but with daddy issues....
lets not forget the new clutch cable that snapped, etc etc etc, I am trying to spare you guys all the details, but this bus by far has been the most evil mother*cker I have ever built....I am not just complaining, it's real...from the wrong color code being mixed to the poorly made headliner....if you think it went wrong, trust me, it did....twice
craig, how much clearance do you have with your belly mount? I didn't ever plan to offroad the bus anyway, and truth be told my 01 audi has about 4 inches of clearance, so I am not real worried. I just didn't want the radiator there
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
the issues I had with the in bay radiators were several. I think my 2.5 hi comp cammed engine may be a part of the problem. but boy, does she haul ass.
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I've go to wonder if all of the issues you are having will be completely surpassed by those of us who plan to use stock 2.2 or 2.5 power plants. Not to say that more power wouldn't be a ton-o-fun, but a stock 2.2 is in my future plans and I would love to use the engine bay rads in my 70 camper.
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nothing |
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webwalker 
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2006
Posts: 2803
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
? As for duty cycle many run constantly when the A/C is on as well and they are always in the hot air from the rad anyways, I suspect they can handle it.
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Y'all,
What BD identified was the conclusion I came to about 6 months ago. "Hang on...when I have the AC on, additional cooling comes on which addresses both the increased engine load but also as a draw through for the AC condenser." As far as I can tell, VW used the low speed winding in the dual speed fan this way from the first Rabbit, completely decoupled from the high speed winding which was tied to the thermistor switch in the radiator for 'over temp' situations. If I'm mistaken, please correct me.
I just traced out my Subaru's harness and logic and it works similarly: aux fan for AC on, main fan for over-temp, and if you get too far into overtemp, it will turn on the aux fan even if you weren't running the AC.
I don't know about the rest of you but I spend a gawdawful lot of time on the road for my commute, and most of that is AC ON, even if it is just to keep windows defogged. So the duty cycle (or considering how long it is usually on for, Mean-Time Between Failures) must be fantastic on the low speed side of these fan motors. It means I'd be less worried about overtemp conditions if I make some other concessions: late bus w/ larger air intakes, 091 Trans for improved gear ratio, and 27" BFG tires. All of this pulls the RPMs on the Subaru down and more into the Subaru's area of strength: torque, not max RPM.
_________________
"Consistent maintenance with quality products is the cheapest warranty you'll ever need."
1977 CE1 Transporter Deluxe, Subaru EJ22, Skills Cooling, Steedle HD 091 w/ GuardT .82 4th
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