Thinking about class 11 style build....

[gargamel]

Hey guys. I'm considering taking my boring near stock '70 bug and making it to a class 11 style. To be fair, I did scour this site and got insight and links to more info. However, they rose some questions that I hope to get more help.

I do not plan to go racing, jumping dunes or anythng wild. I would like to use it to drive to work and still be able to leave the asphalt and hit the dirt country rodes here in Brush county Texas or out on the ranch. Maybe as time goes by, I can still build it up. For now I am considering raising via raised spindles and indexing the rear.

I have a near stock 70 standard with front disc brakes. Stock ride height. PO claimed it has a 1500cc engine and the wheels are 185/65 on 4j 15 wheels.

IIRC, what would be the ideal tires for my wheels for my application? I also read that certain tire sizes can have some negative effect on the engine (running hotter). Pesonally, I'd like a bigger tires in the rear but nothing too crazy or have some impact on my engine. Maybe thinner tires up front?

DO I need to go with type 2 CV or with my bug's work fine? I also read that the cv joints will eventuall blow with a lifted bug? Not what I wanted to hear. Is that why type 2 are used or do they also prone to eventually fail too?

Last, what up with swapping lower trailing arms? Is it to make them Thing-like pointing BJ down? Is this something I should do and does it require any modifications?

[mr_bill]

http://dsb.yuku.com/topic/738/Class-11-Dreamin#.U-VHImMfiEo

_________________
see ya' on the trail........

"Mr Bill"
Dos Perros Motorsports
Orange, CA
1972 Class 11x/Stock Bug
'60's era "vintage" Tunnell-Buggy

"...no one here....get's out ALIVE...."

Motor = electric
Engine = internal combustion

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[Type3Manx]

Your stock front ball joints with the up/down spindles are likely your weakest part in relation to what you want to do. Yes the orientation of the ball joints and lack of stops to limit travel tend to put a lot of stress on the ball joints over time. Most would advise to fabricate travel limiting bump stops to give them some longevity. Running Thing spindles/arms is a great cost effective way to remedy this.

Taller tires while also providing traction and ground clearance will lower your RPM's and also result in more load on the engine. You will need to be more conscious of keeping the engine loaded for long periods at too low of an rpm to provide adequate cooling, typically 3000rpm is acceptable. If you live in the flatlands this may not be a problem, living in the hills and it may require constant downshifting and slower speeds. Depending on what transmission you are running, swapping out to one with lower gearing of the same style may help. It's not so much about tire size itself as it is the entire combination of everything.

When indexing the rear torsion rods, you gain lift by extending the suspension to its farthest point. The swingarms have limiting bumps to prevent them from overextending and everytime your tire tries to down its going to slam into that bump - this can be quite annoying if you are right next to the bump as the smallest movement will cause it to bang. However these travel stops are there to limit the stock type 1 CV joints from over extending their effective operating angles. If you can stand the suspension bangs then things should hold up fine. Some people will clearance the suspension stops to provide more travel and less chance of a bang) but that can quickly overcome the stock type 1 CV's maximum angle and you will start breaking CV's. Type 2 CV's can handle more angle and therefore longer travel but you have to swap the stub axles, CV's and trans flanges to do this. So that's your trade-off.

Swapping lower trailing arms also requires thing spindles. But thing trailing arms are longer and more desirable.

[gargamel]

Thanks for that link and the advice. I. Was debating going with thing spindles vs raised spindles. If I swap my lower arms with thing spindles I would still need thing ball joints pressed in my bug arms, no and if or buts about that right? If I went with thing spindles, those hook and rods should still be added, correct?

I just wish I could find things spindles locally and I guess they will not come cheap.

[Type3Manx]

Regardless if you use thing spindles or raised spindles, having both ball joints loaded the same direction goes a long way toward reliability and longevity. I see lots of bajas like this run many seasons in the desert without issue but it is the inevitable failure point if using all the travel frequently or looking for more travel. Because they are pressed in, breaking one in the field rather sucks!

I seem to recall Thing ball joints had more range to them and thus were bigger, I don't think you can press them in your stock arms.

If you have the means, hook and rods are great for keeping ball joints from overextending and greatly improves running life so yes I would recommend it. Again because breaking a ball joint in the field sucks.

[gargamel]

Good to know. I plan to ride in my flat land and might take it off the dirt road on local ranches but I doubt I will be bump n jumping. But it so good to have a sturdy set up.

If I lift the rear, i. Was hoping to get by with bug cv vs increasing the budget. Maybe one day but if it fits my application, i rather run with what I got. Either way, is lifting the rear going to cut the life of cvs, even if the bug is used mildly?

[Type3Manx]

If you leave the stock torsion plate stops alone and do not clearance them for more travel then you should be fine. T1 CV's are plenty strong within their stock geometry and operating angles with even a mildly built engine. If you keep mindful from shocking the system, like a spinning tire bouncing under load, then even a strong engine can be used with them within their operating angles.

[dustymojave]

[gargamel]

I doubt I would not notch the rear for more lift so type 1 cv should be ok, from what I'm hearing.

Based my my current tires,engine and so forth what would y'all recommend for tires? I hear 235 is common but I don't think I need something that wild. At least not for now.

[AZ-BUG]

I believe Mr. Bill (awesome green/white car above) runs 215/75/15, I run 235's... It sounds like you know the pros/cons and are leaning towards 215's.

Agreed with type3 and Dusty, type 1 CVs are plenty strong if not run beyond their safe limit.

Good luck on your project, post up some pics

[Brian]

215/70-15 will work on the front without lifting it, so there is a plus to that. But for rear, I would use 235. And I did.
_________________
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'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper

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[gargamel]

[Brian]

It wont bypass a cut&turn or spindles, they'll just tuck under the fenders.

I had lift spindles, but had to replace them with Ghia spindles. So right now I'm at a rake without rubbing in the front.

185/65-15 has a diameter of 24.47, where 215/70-15 is 26.85. So you're getting 2 inches ish

235/75-15 is 28.88 inches tall.

Here's how mine was lifted with spindles and indexed to match:

_________________
Wash your hands

'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper

Only losers litter

[gargamel]

Cool bugs posted, by the way. I will keep in mind those tires. Those,should fit with no issues on my 4j15 wheel, which I'm guessing are 4 and not the newer 4.5?

Good info

[Brian]

Thank you

From what I've been told is that 9" tires on your 4"(4jx15) wheels should be fine. I like the look of them, but if you want to there are these:
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-135-601-025-P
_________________
Wash your hands

'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper

Only losers litter

[gargamel]

Thanks.

I have one last question.Now, if I went with Tweed raised spindles or those kustom 1 raised spindles, can the lower arms still be switched to get that ball joints going the same direction like that of the Thing? IIRC, that seems to improve reliabilty. Or is that a no go?

I like to use thing spindles but most wont sell them cheap. I would still need a disc bracket adapter and I would also need new ball joints and have a shop fit them in. $$$ just adds up on a 'simple' front raise.
At least kustom 1 can sell disc versions and I have not read anything bad about them.

[Brian]

It wont be cheap and you're almost better off buying a conversion beam at the going rates of getting everything perfect.

But, no you can't flip the ball joints on the lift spindles, you would have to have thing spindles. If you aren't driving too hard, just the lift spindles should be fine.
_________________
Wash your hands

'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper

Only losers litter

[gargamel]

Thanks for the advise. I know I said at was my last question but I guess I'm looking for some feedback on those welded raised spindles ( vs starting a new topic). Are they reliable ? Perhaps I am not sold yet on those welded raised spindles vs a thing's one solid piece but I base that zero knowledge. Perhaps someone with experience can enlighten me. Seems easier to just get those welded ones and and swap them out.

[Brian]

Tweeds makes the nice ones.
Don't buy empi

_________________
Wash your hands

'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper

Only losers litter

[gargamel]

Now that looks nasty. I heard Tweeds do no have the hole for the speedometer?