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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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 Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: confused about shifting issues. clutch, tranny, or shifter? |
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so its been a while since ive been on here, but my rail is having some issues, so i come for advice.
i have no reverse, it just grinds when i put it in reverse, but it does catch for a quick second. i went outside a few months back and pulled the shifter deal out of the box. i put it back together, and now for some reason you cant shift after you start it. if you start it in first, you can kind of shift but it acts like the clutch doesnt disengage.
im wondering if i need to pull the engine off and look at the clutch, or if its inside of the tranny, or if its something as stupid as the linkage.
now there is a bushing that i swear was sitting half in half out of the back of the shifter box over the linkage, but now it is only on the linkage and not in the hole. would a messed up bushing give me problems with gears NOT disengaging? ill take a few pictures so you guys can see what im talking about.
i was reading through a few other posts and someone said that the ball in the nose cone may be broken on someone elses setup, but i dont think thats for me because i CAN shift, its just not smooth, and my clutch wont disengage.
also its been hard to start since this problem. any ideas? |
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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'd start by adjusting the clutch pedal free play. If that is set correctly and works.
I don't know much about transmissions except that they are easy to get wrong. If you took the " shifter deal out of he box" Did you you fix anything and did you reassemble to specs.?
Not sure about the bushing thing your talking about either but I can tel you that the shift rod and shifter all have to be working and adjusted properly |
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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtkeeper wrote: |
I'd start by adjusting the clutch pedal free play. If that is set correctly and works.
I don't know much about transmissions except that they are easy to get wrong. If you took the " shifter deal out of he box" Did you you fix anything and did you reassemble to specs.?
Not sure about the bushing thing your talking about either but I can tel you that the shift rod and shifter all have to be working and adjusted properly |
i adjusted the clutch pedal about a million different ways, and with no joy. nothing good came from doing so.
the rail was fine, i parked it, messed around with the shifter, shut it off and parked it outside for maybe a month or so, and when i got in it didnt want to start very well and my clutch wasnt working. |
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dirtkeeper wrote: |
I'd start by adjusting the clutch pedal free play. If that is set correctly and works.
I don't know much about transmissions except that they are easy to get wrong. If you took the " shifter deal out of he box" Did you you fix anything and did you reassemble to specs.?
Not sure about the bushing thing your talking about either but I can tel you that the shift rod and shifter all have to be working and adjusted properly |
i adjusted the clutch pedal about a million different ways, and with no joy. nothing good came from doing so.
the rail was fine, i parked it, messed around with the shifter, shut it off and parked it outside for maybe a month or so, and when i got in it didnt want to start very well and my clutch wasnt working. |
the clutch pedal should move about an inch before it starts to have pressure on the pedal. there are specs in the manual if you have one,
Does the clutch lever on the transmission move when you press in the clutch pedal? If not ..stop and figure out why
if it does move, then you probably have to pull the engine and confirm that the shift fork with the throw out bearing is working. if that is then the clutch is messed some way.
possibility your clutch is rusted frozen to the flywheel but unlikely. |
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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtkeeper wrote: |
| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dirtkeeper wrote: |
I'd start by adjusting the clutch pedal free play. If that is set correctly and works.
I don't know much about transmissions except that they are easy to get wrong. If you took the " shifter deal out of he box" Did you you fix anything and did you reassemble to specs.?
Not sure about the bushing thing your talking about either but I can tel you that the shift rod and shifter all have to be working and adjusted properly |
i adjusted the clutch pedal about a million different ways, and with no joy. nothing good came from doing so.
the rail was fine, i parked it, messed around with the shifter, shut it off and parked it outside for maybe a month or so, and when i got in it didnt want to start very well and my clutch wasnt working. |
the clutch pedal should move about an inch before it starts to have pressure on the pedal. there are specs in the manual if you have one,
Does the clutch lever on the transmission move when you press in the clutch pedal? If not ..stop and figure out why
if it does move, then you probably have to pull the engine and confirm that the shift fork with the throw out bearing is working. if that is then the clutch is messed some way.
possibility your clutch is rusted frozen to the flywheel but unlikely. |
Thanks brother, pulling the engine it is. I'm guessing bearing. Any clue on price to replace off the top of your head? Hundred or so? |
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dirtkeeper wrote: |
| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dirtkeeper wrote: |
I'd start by adjusting the clutch pedal free play. If that is set correctly and works.
I don't know much about transmissions except that they are easy to get wrong. If you took the " shifter deal out of he box" Did you you fix anything and did you reassemble to specs.?
Not sure about the bushing thing your talking about either but I can tel you that the shift rod and shifter all have to be working and adjusted properly |
i adjusted the clutch pedal about a million different ways, and with no joy. nothing good came from doing so.
the rail was fine, i parked it, messed around with the shifter, shut it off and parked it outside for maybe a month or so, and when i got in it didnt want to start very well and my clutch wasnt working. |
the clutch pedal should move about an inch before it starts to have pressure on the pedal. there are specs in the manual if you have one,
Does the clutch lever on the transmission move when you press in the clutch pedal? If not ..stop and figure out why
if it does move, then you probably have to pull the engine and confirm that the shift fork with the throw out bearing is working. if that is then the clutch is messed some way.
possibility your clutch is rusted frozen to the flywheel but unlikely. |
Thanks brother, pulling the engine it is. I'm guessing bearing. Any clue on price to replace off the top of your head? Hundred or so? |
the thow out bearing is cheap.. It may be the "arm" that moves the bearing in and out. I doubt it is the bearing itself |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| now there is a bushing that i swear was sitting half in half out of the back of the shifter box over the linkage, but now it is only on the linkage and not in the hole. would a messed up bushing give me problems with gears NOT disengaging? ill take a few pictures so you guys can see what im talking about. |
That sure sounds like the bushing for the throwout shaft is out of the bellhousing. It should be kept in there by a circlip on the shaft.
Yes! it would allow too much movement of the shaft instead of that movement being translated to the throwout bearing.
Post pics of that.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| Quote: |
| now there is a bushing that i swear was sitting half in half out of the back of the shifter box over the linkage, but now it is only on the linkage and not in the hole. would a messed up bushing give me problems with gears NOT disengaging? ill take a few pictures so you guys can see what im talking about. |
That sure sounds like the bushing for the throwout shaft is out of the bellhousing. It should be kept in there by a circlip on the shaft.
Yes! it would allow too much movement of the shaft instead of that movement being translated to the throwout bearing.
Post pics of that. |
well im not super sure, but i think you may be thinking that what i said pertains to the nose of the tranny. the bushing im talking about is the one that i feel like should be in the shifterbox under the actual shifter. its a small nylon looking split in half round deal about the diameter of a quarter.
but what your thinking could be it still. i dont have a 16mm wrench to attack the engine bolts. i must have lost them. |
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dustymojave wrote: |
| Quote: |
| now there is a bushing that i swear was sitting half in half out of the back of the shifter box over the linkage, but now it is only on the linkage and not in the hole. would a messed up bushing give me problems with gears NOT disengaging? ill take a few pictures so you guys can see what im talking about. |
That sure sounds like the bushing for the throwout shaft is out of the bellhousing. It should be kept in there by a circlip on the shaft.
Yes! it would allow too much movement of the shaft instead of that movement being translated to the throwout bearing.
Post pics of that. |
well im not super sure, but i think you may be thinking that what i said pertains to the nose of the tranny. the bushing im talking about is the one that i feel like should be in the shifterbox under the actual shifter. its a small nylon looking split in half round deal about the diameter of a quarter.
but what your thinking could be it still. i dont have a 16mm wrench to attack the engine bolts. i must have lost them. |
You'll need a 17mm not 16
I don't think it's the shift bushing. Your clutch not disengaging is the problem it sound a like. |
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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| dirtkeeper wrote: |
| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dustymojave wrote: |
| Quote: |
| now there is a bushing that i swear was sitting half in half out of the back of the shifter box over the linkage, but now it is only on the linkage and not in the hole. would a messed up bushing give me problems with gears NOT disengaging? ill take a few pictures so you guys can see what im talking about. |
That sure sounds like the bushing for the throwout shaft is out of the bellhousing. It should be kept in there by a circlip on the shaft.
Yes! it would allow too much movement of the shaft instead of that movement being translated to the throwout bearing.
Post pics of that. |
well im not super sure, but i think you may be thinking that what i said pertains to the nose of the tranny. the bushing im talking about is the one that i feel like should be in the shifterbox under the actual shifter. its a small nylon looking split in half round deal about the diameter of a quarter.
but what your thinking could be it still. i dont have a 16mm wrench to attack the engine bolts. i must have lost them. |
You'll need a 17mm not 16
I don't think it's the shift bushing. Your clutch not disengaging is the problem it sound a like. |
I wish I would have read your response before I did the work. I borrowed the wrong wrench. Would have saved me a minute.
Fly wheel bit the plate. Popped it off with a hammer, cleaned it, re assembled. Used an extra shaft deal from a tranny to line clutch up. She works great now! Thought I'd let you know. Thanks for the responses and help brother.
Quick question. When I pulled the engine about a cup of water was sitting in the clutch compartment. Shouldn't there be a gasket between the engine and tranny? |
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dirtkeeper wrote: |
| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dustymojave wrote: |
| Quote: |
| now there is a bushing that i swear was sitting half in half out of the back of the shifter box over the linkage, but now it is only on the linkage and not in the hole. would a messed up bushing give me problems with gears NOT disengaging? ill take a few pictures so you guys can see what im talking about. |
That sure sounds like the bushing for the throwout shaft is out of the bellhousing. It should be kept in there by a circlip on the shaft.
Yes! it would allow too much movement of the shaft instead of that movement being translated to the throwout bearing.
Post pics of that. |
well im not super sure, but i think you may be thinking that what i said pertains to the nose of the tranny. the bushing im talking about is the one that i feel like should be in the shifterbox under the actual shifter. its a small nylon looking split in half round deal about the diameter of a quarter.
but what your thinking could be it still. i dont have a 16mm wrench to attack the engine bolts. i must have lost them. |
You'll need a 17mm not 16
I don't think it's the shift bushing. Your clutch not disengaging is the problem it sound a like. |
I wish I would have read your response before I did the work. I borrowed the wrong wrench. Would have saved me a minute.
Fly wheel bit the plate. Popped it off with a hammer, cleaned it, re assembled. Used an extra shaft deal from a tranny to line clutch up. She works great now! Thought I'd let you know. Thanks for the responses and help brother.
Quick question. When I pulled the engine about a cup of water was sitting in the clutch compartment. Shouldn't there be a gasket between the engine and tranny? |
No gasket. Sometimes water gets in but should drain out |
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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtkeeper wrote: |
| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dirtkeeper wrote: |
| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dustymojave wrote: |
| Quote: |
| now there is a bushing that i swear was sitting half in half out of the back of the shifter box over the linkage, but now it is only on the linkage and not in the hole. would a messed up bushing give me problems with gears NOT disengaging? ill take a few pictures so you guys can see what im talking about. |
That sure sounds like the bushing for the throwout shaft is out of the bellhousing. It should be kept in there by a circlip on the shaft.
Yes! it would allow too much movement of the shaft instead of that movement being translated to the throwout bearing.
Post pics of that. |
well im not super sure, but i think you may be thinking that what i said pertains to the nose of the tranny. the bushing im talking about is the one that i feel like should be in the shifterbox under the actual shifter. its a small nylon looking split in half round deal about the diameter of a quarter.
but what your thinking could be it still. i dont have a 16mm wrench to attack the engine bolts. i must have lost them. |
You'll need a 17mm not 16
I don't think it's the shift bushing. Your clutch not disengaging is the problem it sound a like. |
I wish I would have read your response before I did the work. I borrowed the wrong wrench. Would have saved me a minute.
Fly wheel bit the plate. Popped it off with a hammer, cleaned it, re assembled. Used an extra shaft deal from a tranny to line clutch up. She works great now! Thought I'd let you know. Thanks for the responses and help brother.
Quick question. When I pulled the engine about a cup of water was sitting in the clutch compartment. Shouldn't there be a gasket between the engine and tranny? |
No gasket. Sometimes water gets in but should drain out |
can i put a gasket there? the water didnt drain out, and i go through water and mud |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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No! And don't put sealant in there either! There is a small notch in the bottom of the bellhousing to case seating area to let fluids drain out.
Water in the bellhousing wasn't even a problem in Schwimmwagens which were amphibious.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
No! And don't put sealant in there either! There is a small notch in the bottom of the bellhousing to case seating area to let fluids drain out.
Water in the bellhousing wasn't even a problem in Schwimmwagens which were amphibious. |
Please tell me what to do then. Please tell me the problem. Cause my fucking clutch is froze again. |
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dustymojave wrote: |
No! And don't put sealant in there either! There is a small notch in the bottom of the bellhousing to case seating area to let fluids drain out.
Water in the bellhousing wasn't even a problem in Schwimmwagens which were amphibious. |
Please tell me what to do then. Please tell me the problem. Cause my fucking clutch is froze again. |
did you confirm that the clutch arm and throughout bearing were working when you had it apart?
" Cause my fucking clutch is froze again" ?? what does that mean? pedal goes down but clutch doesn't disengage? or ? |
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dustymojave
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Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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Did you put a little dab of grease in the mainshaft pilot bearing in the gland nut when you had it apart? The mainshaft could weld itself to the pilot bearing if it has rust instead of grease. If the bearing is rusty, you need to replace the gland nut, because the bearing comes with the gland nut. Then torque the gland nut to 217ft/lbs. Grease the new bearing (NOT a lot!) before you assemble the engine into the trans.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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hailmyemail
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Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Clutch disc froze to flywheel. Didn't grease anything. Throwout bearing Shiney and spins smooth. Had to hit plate off fly wheel w hammer. I may replace the plate and see if that fixes it. What clutch do I need to order? How to denims what I need? |
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hailmyemail
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Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| dirtkeeper wrote: |
| hailmyemail wrote: |
| dustymojave wrote: |
No! And don't put sealant in there either! There is a small notch in the bottom of the bellhousing to case seating area to let fluids drain out.
Water in the bellhousing wasn't even a problem in Schwimmwagens which were amphibious. |
Please tell me what to do then. Please tell me the problem. Cause my fucking clutch is froze again. |
did you confirm that the clutch arm and throughout bearing were working when you had it apart?
" Cause my fucking clutch is froze again" ?? what does that mean? pedal goes down but clutch doesn't disengage? or ? |
Yes. The plate froze to flywheel. I kind of polished it and it stuck within 5 days. |
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dustymojave
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Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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You might try pulling out the clutch plate and putting it in the oven at the lowest setting for 15 or 20 minutes or maybe even longer before putting it back in. If there was water sitting in there. It could well have absorbed water which is causing the rusting problem. If that still doesn't fix that problem, you may need to buy a new clutch disc.
Where do you live? It sounds awful wet there.
I've forded creeks nearly up to my carb without having clutch trouble from it.
You might consider cleaning the edges of the bell housing and engine block where they mate up. Then wipe a thin bit of grease or non-hardening body sealer putty on the mating surfaces to help keep air in and water out. Silicon RTV would make it quite difficult to separate the engine and trans later.
For use in deep water, it would also be good to add a vent line from the trans (not talking clutch here) vent up to a higher point with a gas filter on the end of it to keep dirt out. If it's a Type 1 Bug trans, the stock trans vent is above the shifter at the front trans case bolt flange. It's a hole in the casting about 3/16" diameter. You can tap it for 1/16 pipe thread for a hose fitting.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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hailmyemail
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2014
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
You might try pulling out the clutch plate and putting it in the oven at the lowest setting for 15 or 20 minutes or maybe even longer before putting it back in. If there was water sitting in there. It could well have absorbed water which is causing the rusting problem. If that still doesn't fix that problem, you may need to buy a new clutch disc.
Where do you live? It sounds awful wet there.
I've forded creeks nearly up to my carb without having clutch trouble from it.
You might consider cleaning the edges of the bell housing and engine block where they mate up. Then wipe a thin bit of grease or non-hardening body sealer putty on the mating surfaces to help keep air in and water out. Silicon RTV would make it quite difficult to separate the engine and trans later.
For use in deep water, it would also be good to add a vent line from the trans (not talking clutch here) vent up to a higher point with a gas filter on the end of it to keep dirt out. If it's a Type 1 Bug trans, the stock trans vent is above the shifter at the front trans case bolt flange. It's a hole in the casting about 3/16" diameter. You can tap it for 1/16 pipe thread for a hose fitting. |
I'm in alaska. It's very dry in winter, but we've had a terribly wet not winter (which you would call summer). I'll do the grease thing around the bell housing. I'll bake the clutch on lowest for ten minutes. Should I drive the thing around and use the clutch for a few hours after "rebuilding it"? Would that help? Thanks for the responses. I'll check and see if someone routed the breather up higher or if it's out the nose. |
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