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Trike Brakes
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:45 am    Post subject: VW TRIKE BRAKES Reply with quote

Hello Manx, I plan to get a picture of my brake lever today and maybe, I can send it to you. At present, my brake lever is very short. I no longer weld as I did at general Motors, so I will have to continue to improvise.
Thanks for your information.
John in Stem
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: TRIKE BRAKES Reply with quote

Hello Manx, I decided against sending a picture of the brake setup. My brake lever is only about a foot long and when I press on the lever, then the foot pad only goes about four or five inches. if I extend the length of the lever, then I could possibly get 8.5 inches. Since the end result is that the M/C plunger goes in about 3/4", is the solution to extend the lever to make up the pedal travel of 8.5" and in turn slows down the speed of the whole brake lever. Either way, the M/C plunger will still only travel roughly 3/4" and the longer the brake lever, then the slower the plunger will travel. I hope I am understanding this process. Another thing, I have see articles on the necessity of a residual pressure valve. My M/C is lower than the wheel cylinders. Do you think that could be part of my problem? My trike is old and rough condition and my wife would like me to junk it, but I hate to give up on it. Thanks for your time.
John
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the distance the pedal travels is as important as that it doesn't hit against anything before the piston is able to travel as far as the fluid will allow it.

If your master cylinder is below your wheel cylinders, a residual pressure valve maybe what you need to keep the fluid in the wheel cylinders.
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: TRIKE BRAKES Reply with quote

Hello Manx, thank you for the recent information. That is the way I figgered about the M/C plunger too. I guess I will order me a #10 pressure valve.
I bled the brakes some more and the brakes seem to be working some better.
After I get the pressure valve installed and try things out, I will let you know. Again, Thank you.
John
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Trike Brakes Reply with quote

Hello Manx, I haven't ordered the residual valve yet. I haven't found a place which can tell me if it will work on this VW. Just for information, I jacked the Trike front up and made it higher than the rear wheel cylinders and continued to bleed the cylinders. It didn't seem to make any difference with the brakes. The brakes work, but I can still turn the wheels by hand. I noticed one of the rear steel brake lines was a little higher than the wheel cylinder, so I bent it down below. I thought maybe, some air could be trapped in the high place of the line. There is pressure on the foot pedal, but it still goes the full distance of the M/C. Another question is: I have a Beetle reservoir installed. I notice the reservoir needs a 1/8 hose, but the M/C need a 5/16. I improvised by placing a small piece of 1/8 hose on the reservoir and then slipped the 5/16 hose over top of it and used a clamp. I wonder why they made them different sizes. Anyway, Thanks for your time.
John
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John I use the type of reservoir that sits on top of the master cylinder. Clamping the two different reservoir hoses together should be fine.

I looked back through your posts and didn't see you mentioning adjusting the shoes. I let them rub a bit as long as the drum can turn freely. Do you have them adjusted pretty close?
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Trike brakes Reply with quote

Hello Manx, Thanks for your reply. I have the shoes adjusted to where they drag a little. Also, I would have gotten the type M/C with the reservoir on top too, but my M/C is underneath the frame and I have no room above it.
I am wondering if maybe, the reservoir opening may be too small, so I am making me a bit larger one and will use the 5/16" hose instead of the 1/8" one. Take care and have a nice weekend.
John
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Trike brakes Reply with quote

Hello Again Manx, Maybe, I have found part of the problem. I bled the brakes again and checked the shoe adjustment and there was no change.
I pulled the wheel and drum. I wanted to check the movement of the wheel cylinders. ( The M/C is an inch higher than the wheel cylinder)
I placed a mirror so I could watch the cylinder. I pushed the brake pedal as far as it would go and it took pressure to do that, however, the cylinder would extend about a half inch, but as I kept the pedal pushed in, I watched the cylinder go back in to its normal position. I only did this on one wheel, but both wheels act the same as far as having no solid brakes. The M/C is new, also the wheel cylinders and flex hoses. Something is causing the loss of pressure while the brake pedal is completely pushed in. I see no evidence of any fluid leakage. I wonder if I have a bad M/C? Maybe, you have some idea. Later, I may try to check the other wheel cylinder too. That is, if I
can set up a mirror to watch it. Take care, John
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't see any leaking fluid, then it must be a bad master cylinder.
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Trike brakes Reply with quote

Thanks Manx. I sent a message to the seller of my recent M/C. Meanwhile,
I will remove the M/C and try to bench check it. Have a nice weekend.
John
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Trike brakes Reply with quote

Hello Manx, I sent a message to the seller of my M/C and probably won't hear from them for a few days. Meanwhile, I had another M/C, so I bench bled it. I placed the reservoir about two feet above the M/C and connected a clear plastic hose into the container and the other end onto the M/C. I pumped the M/C plunger a few times and the fluid went all the way up the hose. I assumed it was doing it's job. I put it onto the Trike and bled the brakes quite a bit. I watched the wheel cylinder and it barely moved. Also, I could not get any pressure built up in the foot pedal. I have two places on the M/C for the reservoir to feed into and I blocked off the one for the front.
Assuming this present M/C is doing its job, would air in the system prevent the cylinders from working any. I bled the two wheels and got about two ounces of brake fluid. Whatever the cause of it all, There just isn't enough pressure getting to the wheel cylinders. Take care.
John
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Trike brakes Reply with quote

Hello Manx, Since this is the LORD'S day, I won't be fooling with the Trike brakes. Tomorrow, I plan on bypassing the whole system: I will connect the M/C and reservoir directly above the rear wheel. That should rule out every thing except the wheel cylinder and the M/C. The wheel cylinders are brand new (super beetle front cylinders) I am wondering if air could be escaping inside the wheel cylinders and yet there is no fluid leakage. I don't think it is the wheel cylinders, because I had no brakes with the older cylinders. It is strange that I could have two bad M/C's.
When I bleed the brakes, I get fluid running out with no problem, however, The fluid just seems to run and not much pressure behind it. Anyway, I should know something tomorrow. have a nice day. John
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MARY CHRISTY
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Trike brakes Reply with quote

Hello Manx, All is well. I don't think the M/C seller ever answered, so I removed the M/C and checked it on the bench along with the other old M/C
After all the checking and bleeding, I decided the only thing I hadn't thoroughly checked was the M/C plunger. I noticed the plunger on the M/C which was on the Trike traveled 3/4" and the M/C on the bench traveled
1 1/8", so I was sure it had to be the foot pedal which wasn't allowing the
plunger to travel far enough. The foot pedal was my own invention. It wasn't the best. I adjusted the pedal and now the brakes work fine. I can't ride it to check it out in the field. My wife went on vacation and She is
scared for me to ride it when no one is around. Thanks for your help and patience.
John in Stem
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you did a good job troubleshooting and found the problem. Thanks for closing the loop.
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slick rick
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys for all this information I have really enjoyed it . I'm going to a similar problem with my trike the difference are disc brakes . It seems after bleeding they seem better but only for a short time , after that you have to pump a time or two .I'll be checking your solutions that I haven't already tried, if you have any other just let me know .





this is a pic you can see my pedals hanging .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't say what type of master cylinder you're using but on a VW master cylinder the brake pedal has its own return spring which pulls it back against its stop when its released. The VW master cylinder must have 1mm clearance between the pushrod and the piston cup when the pedal is released.

If your pedal "hangs", that tells me it doesn't have a strong enough return spring and you probably don't have the required clearance between the pushrod and piston cup.
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hemi330
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Lack of brakes on a trike Reply with quote

Guys and or Mr Manx.
I am having the same issue with my brakes.
I have a 3/4" wildwood master cylinder.
I have new shoes new line and 10lb Residual Pressure Valve.
I have tried both new stock wheel cylinders and super beetle fronts cylinders.
My pedals are swing similar to the ones pictured in the previous post...
the shoes are adjusted every which way and currently rub a bit.
When I bleed the brakes the pedal fully compresses once bled the petal is very solid had has very little travel.. I have order a .625 master cylinder but it should work now what am I doing wrong..
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BL3Manx
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemi, I haven't looked at this thread in a while, hopefully you've already fixed your problem. If not, Wilwood says not to use larger than a 2lb residual pressure valve.

http://www.wilwood.com/TechTip/TechTroubleshooting.aspx
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