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VWBusrepairman
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 4726
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 Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| If you send me your e-mail, I can send you a copy of the air flow controlled (AFC) injection manual in PDF format. It has assisted me in getting my bus to run well and to better understand the injection system. It has several diagrams and is rather simple to follow. |
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russwiththebus
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2007
Posts: 930
Location: Chattanooga, TN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
1. Expensive (if your looking to convert to FI) $ 1500.00 min
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Please break that figure down for me.
| udidwht wrote: |
3. Original FI system in these buses do NOT compare to the reliability/performance of today's modern FI systems.
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Neither do carbs. |
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secretsubmariner
Champagne Wrangler
Joined: January 08, 2011
Posts: 3104
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
Steve,
Thanks for the last post. Not only did I learn something but I'm sure there will be a lot more guys using that as a good place to start learning their systems. |
X2. Excellent breakdown and great point of view to begin troubleshooting
Thanks!
_________________
-Tony
ᏣᎳᎩᎯ ᎠᏰᎵ
1978 Champagne Edition Bus FI
1970 Auto Fastback FI |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| I differ. Our FI on the 1977 is rock solid. I seem to recall throttle bushings on carbs wearing out, tops warping, choke coils burning up every three to five years, sinking floats etc. I'd say it is personal preference unless your state smog laws change and the carbs are obsoleted. |
Yeah, those damn Solex bushings. No chokes on IDF's. Floats tend to last a long time. Mine have been with me since 1988 with no issues. |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Some of this is just clearly incorrect. My NOS fuel injected set up from soup to nuts would not be close to 1500. Buy a harness from Kyle. Send your injectors to witchhunter and purchase a new FPR. . If I llived that close to God and he was part of my club......I would pick his brain. |
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bugger101
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2010
Posts: 1559
Location: orlando
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:40 am Post subject: |
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[quote="lostorbit"]
| udidwht wrote: |
1. Expensive (if your looking to convert to FI) $ 1500.00 min
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Please break that figure down for me.
| udidwht wrote: |
3. Original FI system in these buses do NOT compare to the reliability/performance of today's modern FI systems.
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Ditto on breaking that figure down...and for a fact...yes these systems CAN run just as reliably or better than modern injection.
Its just that not a mother son of you starts with a brand new system. Bear in mind that these systems are now pushing 40 years old and they still run at least 50-60% rleiability with old shot parts.
Back that up 20 years before the wiring harness was a fossil....and you get reliability that easily rivals modern injection systems.
The sensors on ANY OBD car are not really even designed to go much over 70-80 k miles before replacement. They can in many cases...but are not actually robust enought to do so in every case.
Its quite common on almost any system these days to need both 02 sensors, ambient air temp sensor and coolent temp sensors before 100k miles.....and far too many die an odd death even before that. No tto mention map sensors, speed sensors and crank angle sensors.
The modern ECU is far less robust that what D and L-jet had. Its an everyday occourance in a modern dealership to see cars needing new or reflashed ECU. It was actually quite rare in comparison to see that with these early systems.
The real saving grace of modern injection systems is modern wiring and connectors.
Ive been telling people this for years. Buy new sensors...rebuild your TB, get new seals for everything not just what looks old to you.....buy a new harness and pressure test the pump and replace the regulator.....always...no excuse.
On an engine that is properly built and if the system is properly tuned....there is no reason why you should not be able to drive these with proper and regular maintenance...daily....reliably.
You know I just have to say this: Only in the bus forum can you not go more than a week before there is a distress call about being stranded somewhere in your bus.
This is 100% on the back of the owners...and the fact that these systems are 40 years old and many refuse to do correct due-diligence on setting things straight before acting like the bus is new and driving off into the sunset.
Its ok...you are having fun....  its part of the hippy bus culture I guess.....and I fully understand not always having the $$$....but do not blame the "EFI system" for any unreliability you find. That was not a factory feature. Ray |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:05 am Post subject: |
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For a solid system ground up $1500.00 min if you want it done right (no cutting coroners. I'll stand by that considering I seen the cost passed on to customers many a times over the years.
They still wont rival that of a modern FI system (fact) that runs in todays car such as Toyota, Honda or Nissan. I also own a 2003 Highalander and I've only had to replace the O2 sensors after 150,000 miles on them.
ECU's back in the day for the most part weren't programmable as they are with todays vehicles. That being a negative years ago as any issue with the ECU today can for the most part be remedied. I would disagree that this means a modern one is less robust. Quite the opposite. |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| Bleyseng wrote: |
Here's one Camper Special with Ljet FI and I wouldn't run it anyother way.
I have run dual carbs, single carbs and love the EFI compared to those. The EFI doesn't need constant tinkering, loves the mountain roads, highway or city driving, sub-zero temps etc without a hitch.
The injectors will never clog if you change the fuel filter once and a while. Yes, the fuel lines need changing every few years along with a few of the vac lines. The large stock air cleaner protects your engine nicely too.
The negatives of carbs.....
When the air/fuel mixture goes around a turn in a manifold it has a tendency to separate
Gaskets dry out when it sits
Warm up is problematic
Mixture gets heated in manifold
Big cams , their low vacuum and intake reversion drives you nuts
Don't adjust for altitude
Not accurate across the temperature spectrum
Don't adjust for a hot or cold engine or air temp
Float bowls are vented to atmosphere causing sludge when sitting
Lots of work to adjust for engine changes
Ice up without "preheat" air
A carb is perfect on Fred's Flintstone's car.....Personally, I would leave it there |
Regarding negatives of carbs:
1. Never a problem on short intake runners
2. Yes, but that should never cause any issues unless the carbs have not been rebuilt in a very long time.
3. Yes, perhaps with a Weber progressive.
4. If set up properly that shouldn't cause any issues. It (mixture) should get heated to a degree though for proper burn.
5. No, but that can be resolved very easily.
6. If jetted properly it won't be an issue.
7. No
8. Would depend on how long it' been sitting. Many years...yes. A few months or so ? No
9. With a Weber progressive? Yes. With a properly sat up pair of IDF's? No.
The negatives of FI:
1. Expensive (if your looking to convert to FI) $ 1500.00 min
2. Parts are NOT readily available. (Not road trip friendly)
3. Original FI system in these buses do NOT compare to the reliability/performance of today's modern FI systems.
4. A simple search here will show a slew of FI issues compared to a simple set of dual carbs. |
1. $1500!! Wow, that seems about $1000 too high. Good thing buses don't run Djet as a new MPS is $2500 nowdays.
2. No, what you are saying is that ALL parts for a 40 yr old bus aren't available (not road trip friendly).
3. I run a Original Ljet system to my bus and its doing great and its going on 35 yrs old and 130k miles. Now if I had the stock dual carbs on it they would have to been rebuilt completely by now due to their construction.
4. I think their is as many problems with carb(s) as FI as these are old cars. Both systems require effort to maintain and keep running right. I still prefer the Ljet as it is smoother and produces more power.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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ccpalmer
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2006
Posts: 3850
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I disliked FI. It was so boring; no tune-ups, no carb adjustements, no nothing. It would just start up like a Honduh everyday, -10 to 90 degrees. Warmed up fine, always idled, good mpgs, perfect drive-ability.
So boring. I want to change jets, adjust accel. pumps, tweek idle jets, seasonally change idle mixtues and chokes. So much more in touch with my vehicle now.
_________________
'71 Westy |
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Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| ccpalmer wrote: |
I disliked FI. It was so boring; no tune-ups, no carb adjustements, no nothing. It would just start up like a Honduh everyday, -10 to 90 degrees. Warmed up fine, always idled, good mpgs, perfect drive-ability.
So boring. I want to change jets, adjust accel. pumps, tweek idle jets, seasonally change idle mixtues and chokes. So much more in touch with my vehicle now. |
FI can get pretty exciting when it fails.
I have had two genuine FI repair visits over the past eight years that exercised my mind and my patience. They both responded quickly to repairs, and reminded me anew that the problem with fuel injection isn't the fuel injection so much, but our own diagnostic abilities.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
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ccpalmer
Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2006
Posts: 3850
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Amskeptic wrote: |
| ccpalmer wrote: |
I disliked FI. It was so boring; no tune-ups, no carb adjustements, no nothing. It would just start up like a Honduh everyday, -10 to 90 degrees. Warmed up fine, always idled, good mpgs, perfect drive-ability.
So boring. I want to change jets, adjust accel. pumps, tweek idle jets, seasonally change idle mixtues and chokes. So much more in touch with my vehicle now. |
FI can get pretty exciting when it fails.
I have had two genuine FI repair visits over the past eight years that exercised my mind and my patience. They both responded quickly to repairs, and reminded me anew that the problem with fuel injection isn't the fuel injection so much, but our own diagnostic abilities.
Colin |
My only issue other than vacuum leaks on my FI was when the fuel pump died. After prying and pounding on the fuel pump for an hour trying to open it up to fix it (no way I could afford $250 for a new one at the time) I gave up and just re-installed the fuel pump - and it worked again! Worked for 5+ years afterwards. Sold it with the engine/tranny.
_________________
'71 Westy |
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69BahamaYellow
Samba Member
Joined: April 22, 2011
Posts: 536
Location: Talbott, TN
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: FI - very important lessons I've learned |
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First - for street use, any FI beats any carb PERIOD. I came to this conclusion from years of experience with both.
Second - When you're dealing with old buses, Murphey's Law always applies, so get yourself a spare fuel pump, as that will be the one item you can't Jerry rig to get yourself home, and you can't find them just anywhere. I personally just replaced everything that could break with new parts, where I could find them on my bus.
Third - bus FI is very simple, as others here will attest to, but there are several "little" things about it that will stump even the experts. Vacuum leaks in strange places (like the oil filler cap) would be among the suspects, but there are others like debris in the fuel tank that intermittantly blocks the suction line, or mouse nests in all kinds of wierd places, and crumbling evaporative emmissions plumbing are all the sort of old car problems that can make you unfairly blame the FI system . When I first rebuilt my injection system, I chased a poor running condition for weeks, before finally discovering I had a bad electrical connection to one of my fuel injectors. When I would plug in the square electrical socket to the fuel injector, one of the leads would push out the back of the electrical socket and make intermittant contact. Of course, you could not see this was happening, because each electrical socket has a rubber grommet between the wires and the socket to seal everything up, and the socket fits snugly to the injector with a nice audible click to let you know you connected it properly. Checking for spark, fuel pressure, and compression yielded no abnormalities, and of course, when I would disconnect the electrical socket from the injector, the loose wire would pop back into place, so I could not find any obvious trouble when I checked the leads with my digital multi-meter. I only spotted the trouble when I used an infrared temp guage to measure the exhaust manifold temps at each cylinder and found a dead one. by process of elimination, I finally (and I'm writing this with much grief and anguish) found the trouble with the injector connection, and what a difference it made! FI was again good:) |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: FI - very important lessons I've learned |
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| 69BahamaYellow wrote: |
First - for street use, any FI beats any carb PERIOD. I came to this conclusion from years of experience with both.
Second - When you're dealing with old buses, Murphey's Law always applies, so get yourself a spare fuel pump, as that will be the one item you can't Jerry rig to get yourself home, and you can't find them just anywhere. I personally just replaced everything that could break with new parts, where I could find them on my bus.
Third - bus FI is very simple, as others here will attest to, but there are several "little" things about it that will stump even the experts. Vacuum leaks in strange places (like the oil filler cap) would be among the suspects, but there are others like debris in the fuel tank that intermittantly blocks the suction line, or mouse nests in all kinds of wierd places, and crumbling evaporative emmissions plumbing are all the sort of old car problems that can make you unfairly blame the FI system . When I first rebuilt my injection system, I chased a poor running condition for weeks, before finally discovering I had a bad electrical connection to one of my fuel injectors. When I would plug in the square electrical socket to the fuel injector, one of the leads would push out the back of the electrical socket and make intermittant contact. Of course, you could not see this was happening, because each electrical socket has a rubber grommet between the wires and the socket to seal everything up, and the socket fits snugly to the injector with a nice audible click to let you know you connected it properly. Checking for spark, fuel pressure, and compression yielded no abnormalities, and of course, when I would disconnect the electrical socket from the injector, the loose wire would pop back into place, so I could not find any obvious trouble when I checked the leads with my digital multi-meter. I only spotted the trouble when I used an infrared temp guage to measure the exhaust manifold temps at each cylinder and found a dead one. by process of elimination, I finally (and I'm writing this with much grief and anguish) found the trouble with the injector connection, and what a difference it made! FI was again good:) |
that would have been hard to spot. Good job finding it.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
| Bleyseng wrote: |
Here's one Camper Special with Ljet FI and I wouldn't run it anyother way.
I have run dual carbs, single carbs and love the EFI compared to those. The EFI doesn't need constant tinkering, loves the mountain roads, highway or city driving, sub-zero temps etc without a hitch.
The injectors will never clog if you change the fuel filter once and a while. Yes, the fuel lines need changing every few years along with a few of the vac lines. The large stock air cleaner protects your engine nicely too.
The negatives of carbs.....
When the air/fuel mixture goes around a turn in a manifold it has a tendency to separate
Gaskets dry out when it sits
Warm up is problematic
Mixture gets heated in manifold
Big cams , their low vacuum and intake reversion drives you nuts
Don't adjust for altitude
Not accurate across the temperature spectrum
Don't adjust for a hot or cold engine or air temp
Float bowls are vented to atmosphere causing sludge when sitting
Lots of work to adjust for engine changes
Ice up without "preheat" air
A carb is perfect on Fred's Flintstone's car.....Personally, I would leave it there |
Regarding negatives of carbs:
1. Never a problem on short intake runners
2. Yes, but that should never cause any issues unless the carbs have not been rebuilt in a very long time.
3. Yes, perhaps with a Weber progressive.
4. If set up properly that shouldn't cause any issues. It (mixture) should get heated to a degree though for proper burn.
5. No, but that can be resolved very easily.
6. If jetted properly it won't be an issue.
7. No
8. Would depend on how long it' been sitting. Many years...yes. A few months or so ? No
9. With a Weber progressive? Yes. With a properly sat up pair of IDF's? No.
The negatives of FI:
1. Expensive (if your looking to convert to FI) $ 1500.00 min
2. Parts are NOT readily available. (Not road trip friendly)
3. Original FI system in these buses do NOT compare to the reliability/performance of today's modern FI systems.
4. A simple search here will show a slew of FI issues compared to a simple set of dual carbs. |
1. $1500!! Wow, that seems about $1000 too high. Good thing buses don't run Djet as a new MPS is $2500 nowdays.
2. No, what you are saying is that ALL parts for a 40 yr old bus aren't available (not road trip friendly).
3. I run a Original Ljet system to my bus and its doing great and its going on 35 yrs old and 130k miles. Now if I had the stock dual carbs on it they would have to been rebuilt completely by now due to their construction.
4. I think their is as many problems with carb(s) as FI as these are old cars. Both systems require effort to maintain and keep running right. I still prefer the Ljet as it is smoother and produces more power. |
1. Not if one is converting to FI from carb/s. One will need all applicable parts for FI.
2. No. Weber parts as opposed to 40yr old FI part/s are more readily available. With a clean set of Weber IDF's one is not likely going to have to purchase parts for them on a road trip. I've run mine since 1988 and I've never had them fail on me. Plugged jet/s don't count. They still run the original floats that were purchased with them. They also only require a rebuild every 10 years or so.
3. Stock Solexes? Yes.
4. A properly set up set of Weber IDF's can yield very good results that can near rival that of a fully functional FI system with a lot less hassle and fewer if any parts to fail. |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Any updates to report Video Bob? |
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Video Bob
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2005
Posts: 261
Location: Bishop, GA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Update: I bought a new fuel pressure gauge and some hardware to adapt the gauge to a fuel line and attache it to the fuel rail fitting. With the key on, I triggered the AFC flap and fuel squirted all over the place. Adapter fittings weren't right. I went back to the hardware and bought different adapter fittings and attached to the tester hose and again triggered the AFC flap. This time nothing! To shorten the story, the fuel pump quit working while I was at the hardware. 12v at the pump, but no pumping. Banged on the pump with screwdriver handle, still nothing. Wired direct to the pump from another 12v source nothing. I ordered a new Bosch pump and preemptively ordered a new double relay and 2 fuel filters. I also ordered a complete FI hose kit with clamps. 2 Weeks now and I'm still waiting on the fuel lines from Canada. I called a couple of days ago and got the response "we'll get those out tomorrow." 
_________________
Ya can't have too many Vdubs!
1956 Oval
1966 Beetle
1974 Thing
1974 Super Beetle
1976 Westy P22 |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Video Bob wrote: |
| Update: I bought a new fuel pressure gauge and some hardware to adapt the gauge to a fuel line and attache it to the fuel rail fitting. With the key on, I triggered the AFC flap and fuel squirted all over the place. Adapter fittings weren't right. I went back to the hardware and bought different adapter fittings and attached to the tester hose and again triggered the AFC flap. This time nothing! To shorten the story, the fuel pump quit working while I was at the hardware. 12v at the pump, but no pumping. Banged on the pump with screwdriver handle, still nothing. Wired direct to the pump from another 12v source nothing. I ordered a new Bosch pump and preemptively ordered a new double relay and 2 fuel filters. I also ordered a complete FI hose kit with clamps. 2 Weeks now and I'm still waiting on the fuel lines from Canada. I called a couple of days ago and got the response "we'll get those out tomorrow." |
Good catch so that may be the problem. Another small possibility is that the sudden loss of pressure dislodged some debris that is blocking the inlet line to the pump. Keep us posted.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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beenjamin
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2014
Posts: 50
Location: North Cackalacky
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Wow..... I just got sucked in and read every single word of this thread, expecting to learn the conclusion of this story. Very entertaining with highs and lows, strong words and hurt feelings, understanding and acceptance, but where is the happy ending? Where did everyone go??? Did Bob solve his problems?? I guess i will never know. Like an abruptly ended tv series.
Never once did i look at the date stamp until i got to the end. I am genuinely sad  |
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THall
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2010
Posts: 324
Location: Verona, WI
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| beenjamin wrote: |
| Never once did i look at the date stamp until i got to the end. I am genuinely sad |
Ha...me too. I'm currently doing the conversion back to FI, so I've been reading through a bunch of old threads....this one had a ton of good information, but it sure would have been nice to learn what the problems were.
_________________
'78 Westy - 2.0 FI |
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