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Any wall building masons out there? I have a question!
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ritchiet002
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Any wall building masons out there? I have a question! Reply with quote

This will only apply to someone that works in a place where it doesn't freeze in the winter. I know you have to build below the frostline in those climates. We are contemplating erecting a 5 foot free standing moss/lava rock wall on the top of 3 to 4 foot slope leading down toward our neighbor. I'm worried that it may fall someday, into the neighbors yard. How wide and deep should I ask the contractor to make the footing.
Now you may ask---why don't I trust the contractor? Walls in Hawaii do not need to be permied if it is 5' or less! I just took out a 100 foot long 3' high block wall. It had only 6 vertical pieces of rebar in the whole thing---it did not need to be inspected, so they barely did the minimum work. It did last for fifty years, but it made the Tower of Pisa look stable. Any advise would be appreciated
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard a rule of thumb is that the footing needs to be half as wide as the wall is tall. But I don't know how applicable this is to an un-mortared style wall like you are talking about.

I would go to the permit office on a slow day, and ask to talk to a plan checker. Even if a permit isn't required, they see what works and what doesn't.

Just make it clear this is a social call, and be up front that you are asking for off-the-record advice, and wouldn't even THINK of coming back with complaints if it doesn't go well. Otherwise they will clam up out of liability concerns.
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babysnakes
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
I've heard a rule of thumb is that the footing needs to be half as wide as the wall is tall.


That would mean an 8' wall would have a 4'wide footer. No way. I am in the construction field (land surveyor). The footer is usually twice as wide as the block ( at least in S. Fla.). Vert. rebar about every 4-8 feet w/ concrete filled cells. The question you ask is more of a local to you predicament. The soil in your area is unique to your locale and needs to be addressed my a local engineer.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this a load-bearing wall? The rule of thumb I cited was assuming it is holding back moist soil.

If this is just a partition wall then much less is required.
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my59
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A sketch would do a lot- from the description I'm seeing a wall, free standing, holding up nothing. The new wall consists of rocks piled up, replacing the 100' long block wall that was torn out. Is that what you are doing?
Its a freestanding wall, and you are worried it will fall over- at 5' tall I would be a bit worried too.

Thing to keep in mind- the code is the MINIMUM standard. Just because you do not have to file and permit it does not mean you can't. If you are worried about a POS that a contractor will build- and you own the liability if it falls over-making a permit part of the scope of work will be to your benefit- and typically send the shitty contractors back to the holes they live in.
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coad Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't you hit solid lava if you dig down a few feet in Hawaii?
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drscope
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coad wrote:
Don't you hit solid lava if you dig down a few feet in Hawaii?


I thought red hot molten lava spewed out if they dug down a few feet.
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ritchiet002
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All these post and no alerts? Wonder what's up?
I asked around and was told, that they will dig a 2' wide and 1' deep trench. Then they add concrete and large "two man" stones (yes! it takes two men to move them) and fit them like a puzzle with little or no gaps. They build the whole thing that way, tapering a bit and use smaller and lighter stones as it get taller. Actually, they work better than block, because all the joints are random, which is stronger and less prone to cracking. My builders references are good!
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ritchiet002
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drscope wrote:
coad wrote:
Don't you hit solid lava if you dig down a few feet in Hawaii?


I thought red hot molten lava spewed out if they dug down a few feet.


Only on the big island Wink
I thought I'd add that this photo is of an under ground flow and that is moving faster than still photo can depict. The cooled lave insulates the flow and allows it to move faster.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by ritchiet002 on Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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babysnakes
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ritchiet002 wrote:
Then they add concrete and large "two man" stones (yes! it takes two men to move them) and fit them like a puzzle with little or no gaps. They build the whole thing that way, tapering a bit and use smaller and lighter stones as it get taller.


That is interesting. Are the stones manufactured or natural? Post some pics of the finished project.
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*Darren
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

babysnakes wrote:
ritchiet002 wrote:
Then they add concrete and large "two man" stones (yes! it takes two men to move them) and fit them like a puzzle with little or no gaps. They build the whole thing that way, tapering a bit and use smaller and lighter stones as it get taller.


That is interesting. Are the stones manufactured or natural? Post some pics of the finished project.



Dry stack wall. Think Shawshank Redemption where Morgan Freeman is sitting under a tree opening a tin box. Popular in the Mid Atlantic through North East US using field stone. Never had to build one from scratch, but had to repair a couple. 2+ feet wide, taper, bigger rocks on bottom, smaller rocks near top. Never seen one past , say chest high to a normal height guy.

If you are interested in totally out of control work, check out the book "Stone by Design."
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ritchiet002
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Darren wrote:
babysnakes wrote:
ritchiet002 wrote:
Then they add concrete and large "two man" stones (yes! it takes two men to move them) and fit them like a puzzle with little or no gaps. They build the whole thing that way, tapering a bit and use smaller and lighter stones as it get taller.


That is interesting. Are the stones manufactured or natural? Post some pics of the finished project.



Dry stack wall. Think Shawshank Redemption where Morgan Freeman is sitting under a tree opening a tin box. Popular in the Mid Atlantic through North East US using field stone. Never had to build one from scratch, but had to repair a couple. 2+ feet wide, taper, bigger rocks on bottom, smaller rocks near top. Never seen one past , say chest high to a normal height guy.

If you are interested in totally out of control work, check out the book "Stone by Design."


It's not a dry stack. They dry stack them but there is mortar behind the rocks. The also use pulverized rock to color the mortar, so it pretty much is invisible, where they can't hide it. I have seen dry stack wall using stones that are maybe the size of two vw motors---id love to see how they build one like that!
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babysnakes
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In S. Fla. decades ago they used coral rock of various sizes and chiseled away to make them fit snug against each other, no mortar. A true work of art. There are walls that are extremely old still standing even after hurricanes like Andrew.
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ritchiet002
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

babysnakes wrote:
In S. Fla. decades ago they used coral rock of various sizes and chiseled away to make them fit snug against each other, no mortar. A true work of art. There are walls that are extremely old still standing even after hurricanes like Andrew.

Lots of old ones here too! I don't think they are allowed to use coral rock anymore.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geeze, I pity the poor masons who have to work with lava all day. I don't care how skilled you are, that lava is gonna cut your hands and arms raw.
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ritchiet002
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coad wrote:
Geeze, I pity the poor masons who have to work with lava all day. I don't care how skilled you are, that lava is gonna cut your hands and arms raw.


Old and weathered lava rock, probably millions of years old, not days old Cool
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my59
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ritchiet002 wrote:
*Darren wrote:
babysnakes wrote:
ritchiet002 wrote:
Then they add concrete and large "two man" stones (yes! it takes two men to move them) and fit them like a puzzle with little or no gaps. They build the whole thing that way, tapering a bit and use smaller and lighter stones as it get taller.


That is interesting. Are the stones manufactured or natural? Post some pics of the finished project.



Dry stack wall. Think Shawshank Redemption where Morgan Freeman is sitting under a tree opening a tin box. Popular in the Mid Atlantic through North East US using field stone. Never had to build one from scratch, but had to repair a couple. 2+ feet wide, taper, bigger rocks on bottom, smaller rocks near top. Never seen one past , say chest high to a normal height guy.

If you are interested in totally out of control work, check out the book "Stone by Design."


It's not a dry stack. They dry stack them but there is mortar behind the rocks. The also use pulverized rock to color the mortar, so it pretty much is invisible, where they can't hide it. I have seen dry stack wall using stones that are maybe the size of two vw motors---id love to see how they build one like that!


The local old stone walls in CT start with the largest stones at the bottom, 24 to 30" wide at the base and taper to the top- sometimes the taper is on the back side not seen from the road. The only 5' tall ones I have seen were built by masons and were mortared together. I've done small retaining walls, dry stacked maybe 30" high for minor grade changes- its fun in a zen kind of way, as you look at all the stone scattered about and imagine how they will all fit together.
Sounds like you wall builder knows what he is doing.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tubal Cain
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