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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: Rear Apron Template |
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OK, i need some templates of your NOS or good OG apron.
Here is my call to the Tyoe 3 community for some help with a common issue; those dang rear aprons that are always bent!
I felt that because NOS rear aprons are getting near impossible to find, there has to be a way to get them straight.
The 2nd best thing to do short of NOS is good used.
This should be "good used" in quotations, as this is somewhat of an oxymoron, because these rear aprons are always bent!
So, to start things off, here is a picture of a used rear apron that has been carefully dissected off of a reasonably straight, rust-free car.
This is ideally how the rear apron would be removed - sacrificing everything all around the actual apron part itself, but leaving the piece wholly intact - no spot-weld holes drilled.
This requires a parts car really, as the amount of rear area that gets cut away to keep this intact is significant.
The 'recipient' car will get the spot-welds drilled, and the old apron sacrificed.
This way the drilled spot-weld holes in the car can be plug-welded to a pristine flat flange with no holes (the flange on this apron piece pictured below).
If that makes any sense...
Here we have the two most likely/common forms of rear apron bend-age.
I will hereby call these two symptoms "Lower Buckle" (a.k.a. Quiet Pack bend-age) and the resulting "Mid Seam" buckle.
Now, Lower Buckle doesn't always come from aftermarket header installation, but it usually seems to arrive that way. Thing is, that the Mid-seam damage will also almost always arrive too, especially if the Lower Buckle is attempted to be straightened out.
Here is another pic of the mid-seam issue - this seam is stitch-welded, not spot-welded, and tends to hold tight, regardless of how much back-and-forth bending we try with it.
However, the welded seam area in the middle holds tight, and the places above and below bulge out, giving a groove all the way across.
This area is supposed to be flat across here, right?
Here is a side view of some Lower Buckle.
i did straighten out a lot of this, but the lower apron is supposed to curve like the end mounting flange area, not be flat, or recessed in profile, like this:
So, to try and straighten out this donor apron, a first step was to capture the contour of the side mounting flange.
I'm using a paper template, which works here at the end/side,
but going inwards more towards the center, doesn't work so well.
Both the lower flat apron 'skirt' and the 'mid seam' areas are different when you go inwards from the edge of the car.
Plus, as you can see here, depth of the curve of the upper apron gets shallower as you go inwards more toward the centerline of the car.
Here's the angle of the lower skirt i measured - who knows what it's actually supposed to be?
My donor piece seems to have similar curves, at least at the ends.
This kind of shows how the mystery comes to light, and what the unknowns are.
SO....
Here's what i was thinking.
Looking how surfboard shapers make their measurements, we can do the same to make a template.
Start with a vertical line at the very center of the car:
Measure out 1 foot (304.8mm) each side of your centerline and make another vertical (square) line.
Now, you can make a template at the centerline.
And also at the other line.
Viola! you will be able to bodywork between these correct points.
The best tool to get some contours of these would presumably be one of those 'contour finder' thingies - you know, a row of pins that slide loose in a long bracket/clamp thing that can me tightened down?
Anybody know what i mean?
You know what i mean... Rgiht?
Soooooo... Who out there is hoarding an NOS or OG apron and can make me a couple of templates?
i promise to trace them to some firm plastic sheet and mail to any forum member who wants a copy!
Maybe even get you one of those contour finder thingies with the row of pins if you need it?
Come on, people! Hoarding hurts everybody!
Allow your precious closet decoration to help other, less fortunate aprons live on! _________________ Bus Motor Build
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vlad01 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 3069 Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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continuous seam weld, now thats interesting.
Im gonna check mine now cos i recall spot welds. _________________ The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g
71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old |
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vlad01 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 3069 Location: Australia
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:20 am Post subject: |
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The seam is dead flat on both mine, also both are spot welded so I did recall that correctly.
As far as I can see the profile of the apron is the same all the way end to end. _________________ The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g
71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old |
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Yabbadubbadoo Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 914
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Had a bent apron on my car and realized the same issues. The curves don't flow around at exactly the same profile. The real kicker for me was the crease through the faux slots. They are there to stiffen it up but sure make life tough if you have a bad crease through the guts of the slots. If the slots flatten out somewhat they are a bitch to get right.
I spent about 6 hours, got 90% (by looks) but only 50% there in reality.
Getting it straight with stock curves is a lot harder than it looks as you've shown us Clatter. I admire the determination. I'm not too proud to say though that I binned my 6 hours work and welded in an un-damaged slotted section that I eventually tracked down. I couldn't get a whole rear clip but managed to get the lower section cut and then stitched it in like a rust repair patch butt welded. _________________ Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback |
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vlad01 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 3069 Location: Australia
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:13 am Post subject: |
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in the build thread I did say I had an extra fasty one thats just about perfect on the lower section, only firberglassed (rust? or dent?) in the upper flat sheet metal section. relative easy fix compared to trying to fix the lower section.
If you get stuck thats always an option but shipping will be a killer no doubt. _________________ The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g
71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Vlad,
How about making up a couple of templates off of your NOS notch apron for me?
Really, all I am asking for is someone to fab up a 'template' a.k.a. 'gauge' a.k.a. 'go/no go' piece. (or two)
I would make my own, but do not have access to an apron that is not mangled.
If I just dig in and start hammering, the chances that I would make it correctly are slim.
With a gauge made off of an NOS apron, anyone could save a mangled apron with a little determination.
Come on, I KNOW you can do it!
Don't just post a pic of your NOS apron, and not help a brother out... Teasing isn't nice. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Nate M. Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003 Posts: 1306 Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:20 am Post subject: |
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I'd hook you up, but mine went the wa of the Do-do long ago. Those flappy, bendy parts with the faux vents just get in the way of exhaust plans and I've found that they are only good for practicing body work. _________________ Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Nate, Ya, I know, it should have a rolled pan under there, and let the polished Tangerine Racing exhaust be shown off!
But for some reason, resto/sleeper rules the day...
Seriously, though, it will suck to spend a bunch of time body-working that apron to the _wrong_ profile,,, _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Yabbadubbadoo Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012 Posts: 914
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Clatter wrote: |
Seriously, though, it will suck to spend a bunch of time body-working that apron to the _wrong_ profile,,, |
I would have offered except mine's been fixed so technically not factory. I mean it looks right but it's not one that came off the press and hasn't seen a hammer and dolly.
Maybe someone with a secret stash of panels might find it on their heart to offer you an apron clip. I mean there's still time right? Gotta be one out there if not for sale then possibly on loan to take your measurements.!
Anyone? _________________ Sydney, Australia.
66 Type 3 Fastback |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:23 am Post subject: |
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vlad01 wrote: |
The seam is dead flat on both mine, also both are spot welded so I did recall that correctly. |
I'll check mine tonight, but my hand seems to remember a slight concavity to that lateral seam from waxing it about 100 times over the years. It's never been damaged or fixed since it was new, just repainted last year.
You can almost see the reflections indicating that it isn't flat here:
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Here is what that contour finder thingie is called --- A "profile gauge"!
Eastwood sells them for $40.
http://www.eastwood.com/15in-adjustable-profile-gauge.html
I'll buy one and send it to you to use on your NOS or correct OG apron if you don't have one or want to buy one. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22356 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Rear Apron Template |
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Clatter wrote: |
OK, i need some templates of your NOS or good OG apron.
Here is my call to the Tyoe 3 community for some help with a common issue; those dang rear aprons that are always bent!
I felt that because NOS rear aprons are getting near impossible to find, there has to be a way to get them straight.
SO....
Here's what i was thinking.
Looking how surfboard shapers make their measurements, we can do the same to make a template.
Start with a vertical line at the very center of the car:
Measure out 1 foot (304.8mm) each side of your centerline and make another vertical (square) line.
Now, you can make a template at the centerline.
And also at the other line.
Viola! you will be able to bodywork between these correct points.
The best tool to get some contours of these would presumably be one of those 'contour finder' thingies - you know, a row of pins that slide loose in a long bracket/clamp thing that can me tightened down?
Anybody know what i mean?
You know what i mean... Rgiht?
Soooooo... Who out there is hoarding an NOS or OG apron and can make me a couple of templates?
i promise to trace them to some firm plastic sheet and mail to any forum member who wants a copy!
Maybe even get you one of those contour finder thingies with the row of pins if you need it?
Come on, people! Hoarding hurts everybody!
Allow your precious closet decoration to help other, less fortunate aprons live on! |
Steve, you'll probably want to split that 1 foot from the center (on each side) in half, or maybe divide each side into thirds. That way you can get a more accurate reading across the apron.
As far as the bottom section goes, you'll probably need an NOS part part to get the angles from. Just a thought. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Nate M. Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003 Posts: 1306 Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Another idea would be to purchase a fiberglass rear apron panel from glassaction.com and use that as a template for the metal work. Cheap, available and molded straight off an NOS part. . .
Just another idea. . . _________________ Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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vlad01 Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010 Posts: 3069 Location: Australia
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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KTPhil wrote: |
vlad01 wrote: |
The seam is dead flat on both mine, also both are spot welded so I did recall that correctly. |
I'll check mine tonight, but my hand seems to remember a slight concavity to that lateral seam from waxing it about 100 times over the years. It's never been damaged or fixed since it was new, just repainted last year.
You can almost see the reflections indicating that it isn't flat here:
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yeah interesting, must of been the way they assembled them here. All spot welds 30mm apart and flat here, both the notch and fasty rear clip are that I've got.
Don't know how I can help with the profiling, I no longer have access to any cad software or CNC cutters as I resigned from work few months back. So I can't digitize cardboard templates either _________________ The best of VW engine development!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROWqjuTM0g
71 Aussie notchback, the money pit
92 VP vacationer, old faithful never die
95 VR executive, Restored beyond factory
92 VP S Pack, bought it new old |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Ran my finger along that line (now hidden behind the bumper) and it is slightly concave on my '71. |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22356 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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KTPhil wrote: |
Ran my finger along that line (now hidden behind the bumper) and it is slightly concave on my '71. |
Yea, I was going to mention that. On 3 of the type 3s I have here, they ALL have that indent between the upper and lower parts. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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vlad01 wrote: |
Don't know how I can help with the profiling, I no longer have access to any cad software or CNC cutters as I resigned from work few months back. So I can't digitize cardboard templates either |
There are things you can do without using a computer, you know...
You would use the profile gauge to find the profile.
Then, you would transfer the profile to a piece of cardboard,
using ancient tools called a "pen" or "pencil".
See, these were primitive "writing" instruments,
Before people had keyboards, they used these hand-held sticks that left a track when moved along on paper or other substrate.
Not only could they 'trace', or move along something to mark the edge, but they could also form written letters, even whole words and numbers.
All without a computer!
You would be surprised,
There are all kinds of tools out there, that don't even require a computer at all to operate.
They are called 'hand' or 'power' tools, and people do all kinds of things with them. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
Ran my finger along that line (now hidden behind the bumper) and it is slightly concave on my '71. |
Yea, I was going to mention that. On 3 of the type 3s I have here, they ALL have that indent between the upper and lower parts. |
FWIW, my theory is that they have all been bumped.
If you look at the seam-weld running all along the breadth of the mid seam,
It is quite thin, and likely done with some type of automatic machinery.
Because of it's small/thin nature, and the fact that if any movement is introduced, the edges of the flange the mid-seam area is welded to will 'pry out' the areas above and below the weld.
If that makes any sense...
tying to explain it is hard, but, if the lower part of the apron gets pushed back and forth at all, it will result in the seam-weld being sucked in, and the areas to each side being pushed out, or a bit of both.
I vaguely remember seeing a perfect apron with no 'seam sink', and the area along the mid-seam flat in profile. _________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Nate M. wrote: |
Another idea would be to purchase a fiberglass rear apron panel from glassaction.com and use that as a template for the metal work. Cheap, available and molded straight off an NOS part. . .
Just another idea. . . |
Oddly enough, Brent got one of those Glass Action rear aprons, and IIRC, the mid seam is flat in profile.
Brent was moving away, and we both were looking at it, and kind of laughing at it, thinking it largely worthless.
If only I could have guessed!
Way to think outside the box, Nate.
This ain't your first rodeo, eh?
Wonder how close those fiberglass aprons really are?
How to know if they didn't copy a bent one?
_________________ Bus Motor Build
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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