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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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I'm holding a bottle of 10W-30 Valvoline VR-1 racing oil in my hand. printed on the label it says "Exceeds engine protection requirements for API Services SN/SM/SL" _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
I'm holding a bottle of 10W-30 Valvoline VR-1 racing oil in my hand. printed on the label it says "Exceeds engine protection requirements for API Services SN/SM/SL" |
That is kind of a fancy way to say that their oils aren't SM/SN rated. Those of us that worry about the amount of ZDDP in our oils want our oils exceed the SM/SN engine protection requirements, not meet them. |
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Juanito84 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012 Posts: 2436 Location: Colorado Mountains
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Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
I'm holding a bottle of 10W-30 Valvoline VR-1 racing oil in my hand. printed on the label it says "Exceeds engine protection requirements for API Services SN/SM/SL" |
"Exceeds engine protection requirements" is a good thing. But I'm sure it doesn't exceed the emissions requirements of those ratings. It would be labled "API Certified" if it did. _________________ If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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You can go pound sand. All you want to do is argue. The label clearly says "Exceeds engine protection requirements for API Services SN/SM/SL"
On the link you provided above the Valvoline fact sheet list the Zink/Phosphorus as .14/.13 Which is 1400/1300 parts per million which has been established to be plenty enough ZDDP for our flat tappet engines. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Anvil Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009 Posts: 248 Location: Golden, Colorado
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Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:05 am Post subject: |
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Amsoil Z-Rod 10-30, remote thermostat controlled oil cooler in airstream, 2-quart CB thinline sump, 36hp shroud, 2180cc, 9.4-1 compression, after 45-minutes of sustained 75-80 mph on I-25 and after going up Monument Hill. 75'ish ambient. _________________ A man with any character at all must have enemies and places he is not welcome—in the end we are not only defined by our friends, but those aligned against us.
Last edited by Anvil on Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Juanito84 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012 Posts: 2436 Location: Colorado Mountains
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Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
You can go pound sand. All you want to do is argue. The label clearly says "Exceeds engine protection requirements for API Services SN/SM/SL"
On the link you provided above the Valvoline fact sheet list the Zink/Phosphorus as .14/.13 Which is 1400/1300 parts per million which has been established to be plenty enough ZDDP for our flat tappet engines. |
The phosphorus limit in 10W-30 API SN CERTIFIED oil is 800ppm. This is the top limit, so more disqualifies it as an SN oil. SN oils are for new cars with the goal to keep the catalytic converter going for at least 150,000 miles. I'm sure that if you used Valvoline VR1 in a 2014 vehicle you wouldn't get those kind miles out of the cat.
Now does Valvoline VR1 offer more protection to the engine than an SN oil (especially one with flat tappets or used in high performance applications)? Yes! and so Valvoline put that on the bottle. It's a loop hole to get "SN" on the bottle without actually being an SN oil. But what they didn't put on the bottle is, "Exceeds all requirements for API SN rated oil." If it did it would probably be certified. _________________ If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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udidwht Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005 Posts: 3777 Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Off of the Valvoline site: http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76
Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" racing oil?
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent of zinc and .12 percent of phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14 percent of zinc and .13 percent of phosphorus. _________________ 1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: |
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udidwht wrote: |
Off of the Valvoline site: http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76
Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" racing oil?
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent of zinc and .12 percent of phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14 percent of zinc and .13 percent of phosphorus. |
In the 10w30 weight, neither VR1 or the Not Street Legal Racing oil are "street legal" SM/SN oils. No 10w30 or thinner oil that has more than 800 ppm phosphorus is SM/SN rated. |
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udidwht Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005 Posts: 3777 Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Wildthings wrote: |
udidwht wrote: |
Off of the Valvoline site: http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/76
Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or "Not Street Legal" racing oil?
Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent of zinc and .12 percent of phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil which contains .14 percent of zinc and .13 percent of phosphorus. |
In the 10w30 weight, neither VR1 or the Not Street Legal Racing oil are "street legal" SM/SN oils. No 10w30 or thinner oil that has more than 800 ppm phosphorus is SM/SN rated. |
It boils down to how they label it. _________________ 1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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BeetleUy Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2013 Posts: 156 Location: Uruguay
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Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, I'm from Uruguay and in my country I can find shell rimula r4 15w40, the temperature here varies from 0 to 37 C. I I'd that grade good for me? What amount of zinc doors out contain? _________________ VW beetle - 1986 - 1600 dp
H30/31 - SVDA
7.9:1 CR |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:26 am Post subject: |
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The viscosity is fine, but it probably doesn't have a lot of Zinc. If your engine is already broken in and you can't find anything else it will probably be fine. Modern "low emission" oils have other additives that help to protect our tappets once the break in period is over. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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BeetleUy Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2013 Posts: 156 Location: Uruguay
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Quokka42 wrote: |
The viscosity is fine, but it probably doesn't have a lot of Zinc. If your engine is already broken in and you can't find anything else it will probably be fine. Modern "low emission" oils have other additives that help to protect our tappets once the break in period is over. |
Well the break in is not over yet, it's 500 km since I changed rings and pushrods. What oil should I use for break in then? _________________ VW beetle - 1986 - 1600 dp
H30/31 - SVDA
7.9:1 CR |
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RHough Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013 Posts: 299 Location: Canada
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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BeetleUy wrote: |
Quokka42 wrote: |
The viscosity is fine, but it probably doesn't have a lot of Zinc. If your engine is already broken in and you can't find anything else it will probably be fine. Modern "low emission" oils have other additives that help to protect our tappets once the break in period is over. |
Well the break in is not over yet, it's 500 km since I changed rings and pushrods. What oil should I use for break in then? |
My Spanish is poor. I'd look for Shell Rimula R3 15w-40. Zinc is 2.40% if I read the MSDS correctly. |
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BeetleUy Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2013 Posts: 156 Location: Uruguay
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:56 am Post subject: |
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RHough wrote: |
BeetleUy wrote: |
Quokka42 wrote: |
The viscosity is fine, but it probably doesn't have a lot of Zinc. If your engine is already broken in and you can't find anything else it will probably be fine. Modern "low emission" oils have other additives that help to protect our tappets once the break in period is over. |
Well the break in is not over yet, it's 500 km since I changed rings and pushrods. What oil should I use for break in then? |
My Spanish is poor. I'd look for Shell Rimula R3 15w-40. Zinc is 2.40% if I read the MSDS correctly. |
How do i get the ppm based on the %? _________________ VW beetle - 1986 - 1600 dp
H30/31 - SVDA
7.9:1 CR |
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RHough Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013 Posts: 299 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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BeetleUy wrote: |
RHough wrote: |
BeetleUy wrote: |
Quokka42 wrote: |
The viscosity is fine, but it probably doesn't have a lot of Zinc. If your engine is already broken in and you can't find anything else it will probably be fine. Modern "low emission" oils have other additives that help to protect our tappets once the break in period is over. |
Well the break in is not over yet, it's 500 km since I changed rings and pushrods. What oil should I use for break in then? |
My Spanish is poor. I'd look for Shell Rimula R3 15w-40. Zinc is 2.40% if I read the MSDS correctly. |
How do i get the ppm based on the %? |
So much for my ability to read a Spanish MSDS. 2.4% would be 24000 PPM ... not likely. Sorry.
My personal recommendation is Shell Rotella T. I use 10W-30.
I look for a CI-4 / SM API rating. I'm not convinced there is a problem with cam/tappet wear at 800ppm but the 'older' CI-4 and SM ratings have been in service for years with no problems. Shell is on record that their CI-4 rated oil has 1200PPM (0.12%) ZDDP
In the US particularly if there was a problem with oil and flat tappet cams that caused damage the low ZDDP oils would have great huge warning labels to avoid product liability.
The acceptable range for ZDDP is 800 - 2000 PPM as near as I can tell. It is possible to damage the cam and lifters with too much ZDDP as might happen by using too much of a high ZDDP additive.
I don't think oil choice is as critical as we pretend it is. |
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BeetleUy Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2013 Posts: 156 Location: Uruguay
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:56 am Post subject: |
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RHough wrote: |
BeetleUy wrote: |
RHough wrote: |
BeetleUy wrote: |
Quokka42 wrote: |
The viscosity is fine, but it probably doesn't have a lot of Zinc. If your engine is already broken in and you can't find anything else it will probably be fine. Modern "low emission" oils have other additives that help to protect our tappets once the break in period is over. |
Well the break in is not over yet, it's 500 km since I changed rings and pushrods. What oil should I use for break in then? |
My Spanish is poor. I'd look for Shell Rimula R3 15w-40. Zinc is 2.40% if I read the MSDS correctly. |
How do i get the ppm based on the %? |
So much for my ability to read a Spanish MSDS. 2.4% would be 24000 PPM ... not likely. Sorry.
My personal recommendation is Shell Rotella T. I use 10W-30.
I look for a CI-4 / SM API rating. I'm not convinced there is a problem with cam/tappet wear at 800ppm but the 'older' CI-4 and SM ratings have been in service for years with no problems. Shell is on record that their CI-4 rated oil has 1200PPM (0.12%) ZDDP
In the US particularly if there was a problem with oil and flat tappet cams that caused damage the low ZDDP oils would have great huge warning labels to avoid product liability.
The acceptable range for ZDDP is 800 - 2000 PPM as near as I can tell. It is possible to damage the cam and lifters with too much ZDDP as might happen by using too much of a high ZDDP additive.
I don't think oil choice is as critical as we pretend it is. |
http://www.ktstrade.com.my/shell/technical%20data/a01.pdf
That is the datasheet of Rimula in english, it is CI-4 _________________ VW beetle - 1986 - 1600 dp
H30/31 - SVDA
7.9:1 CR |
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RHough Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2013 Posts: 299 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: |
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That is good enough for me. I'd run it. |
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Juanito84 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012 Posts: 2436 Location: Colorado Mountains
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:45 am Post subject: |
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RHough wrote: |
The acceptable range for ZDDP is 800 - 2000 PPM as near as I can tell. It is possible to damage the cam and lifters with too much ZDDP as might happen by using too much of a high ZDDP additive.
I don't think oil choice is as critical as we pretend it is. |
Agreed. 800ppm Phos has been the standard since ZDDP was added to engine oil and will provide enough protection for any OEM flat tappet engine built for normal driving. However, more ZDDP is required if 1) you have stiffer than stock valve springs, 2) you have a high reving engine, or 3) you have cheaply made cam and tappets. More isn't necessary but it won't instantly destroy the engine either. _________________ If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Quokka42 Samba Member
Joined: December 02, 2010 Posts: 3117 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: |
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1100 is a better lower limit for the breakin period, so 1200 is good. Use that if available.
I like another change at 1500, then the 3000 you are fine to use regular oil. If your oil didn't look good at 500, do 1000, 2000, then switch to regular oil at 3000. _________________ There has only ever been one man who was perfect, and they nailed Him to a cross. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Juanito84 wrote: |
Agreed. 800ppm Phos has been the standard since ZDDP was added to engine oil and will provide enough protection for any OEM flat tappet engine built for normal driving. |
And 12,000 was once the standard warranty period too while many cars would begin having serious engine problems before they made it to 30,000 miles. At the advent of The SM rules a typical oil would have had more like 1100-1250ppm ZDDP. |
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