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virtanen Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2006 Posts: 1461 Location: Finland
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: More 25 hp intake manifold alternatives |
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My Jan 52 split has this accessory intake manifold for cold contries. Look at the lenght of the jacket!
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting! I can see that the heat riser tubing is specific to that intake as well. Even different from the "zwitter" intake with the longer right side tube.
Is the jacket cast aluminum? I assume that it is for 25hp heads, you engine sure looks like a correct 25hp. I like the cyclone filter. I have one too that I have restored, it will go on my '51. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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virtanen Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2006 Posts: 1461 Location: Finland
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Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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The jacket is cast aluminium. The intake was originally chrome plated, but nobody couldn't re-chrome it.
The engine is matching for the car. Almost all parts are the same which placed on that engine in 1952. Fuel line is re-coppered. |
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HeSa Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2007 Posts: 466 Location: FINLAND
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Here´s what an old German "progressive refinements" tells (thanks Karlheinz!):
21.5.1950 welding between the manifold and pre-heating tube 10mm longer on both sides
3.4.1950 alloy jacket for better pre-heating of the mixture
Sept 1952 Special jacket, longer casting (customer service part for northern countries)
1.10.1952 new design for the heat riser pipes and aluminium jacket
21.12.1953 pre-heater jacket in the down pipe |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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HeSa wrote: |
Here´s what an old German "progressive refinements" tells (thanks Karlheinz!):
21.5.1950 welding between the manifold and pre-heating tube 10mm longer on both sides
3.4.1950 alloy jacket for better pre-heating of the mixture
Sept 1952 Special jacket, longer casting (customer service part for northern countries)
1.10.1952 new design for the heat riser pipes and aluminium jacket
21.12.1953 pre-heater jacket in the down pipe |
Well, to put these in order:
March 3rd 1950 alloy jacket for better pre-heating of the mixture- This is the start of Jacketed K manifold.
May 21 .1950 welding between the manifold and pre-heating tube 10mm longer on both sides- Not sure what this is. In the German PR, was this listed as a Bus chassis number? Seems to refer to the continuous bead weld on the pre jacketed Ks. No continuous weld after that.
Sept 1952 Special jacket, longer casting (customer service part for northern countries)- Just a month before zwitter, these seems to refer to the one in int he pic above.
Oct 1, 1952 new design for the heat riser pipes and aluminium jacket- This refers to the "701" style intake and is the end of the Jacketed K. The 701 style looks like the 36hp intale, but has thinner (18mm OD) heat riser tubes and the narrower endcastings with 1.125" faces for the 25hp heads
Dec 12 1953 pre-heater jacket in the down pipe- I have no idea what this means. It might be another cold weather special intake, I know of no regularo production intakes where the jacket coverd the down pipe. Have seen some that looked like "specials" however... _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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twinwindows Samba Pimp
Joined: December 08, 2000 Posts: 4086 Location: So.Cal. Highland Park GFK!
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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A real 25HP has a "K" manifold. srry but I had to say it. _________________ CRG
My builds
BAD TEMPER 11
CHRISTINE
GFK LIFER!
myzamboni wrote: |
Yeah, everyone's now doing it GFK style . . . everythinig is covert until the finished product is revealed. |
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
Oct 1, 1952 new design for the heat riser pipes and aluminium jacket- This refers to the "701" style intake and is the end of the Jacketed K. The 701 style looks like the 36hp intale, but has thinner (18mm OD) heat riser tubes and the narrower endcastings with 1.125" faces for the 25hp heads
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Do you have any documentation to back that up? I think that change that you reference was the Zwitter manifold
I have this that backs up my assertion that the 701 25 hp manifold was never a production 25 hp manifold but a later replacement part.
From the 9/55 M1 tech bulletin. See Interchangability of Engine Parts
It states that the 129 501c is the supplied replacement part. This is the zwitter manifold
From the 9/57 M1
This calls the 111 129 701 manifold. The 36hp style 25hp manifold.
I also have this from the 3/55 K1
still calling for the 129 501c zwitter manifold.
Here is the second page from the 1/54 K1 that clearly shows removing a jacketed K and replacing it with a zwitter manifold.
The K1 first came out in 1/53 with those same pictures.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/techbulletins/k1.php _________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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HeSa Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2007 Posts: 466 Location: FINLAND
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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johnshenry wrote: |
HeSa wrote: |
Here´s what an old German "progressive refinements" tells (thanks Karlheinz!):
21.5.1950 welding between the manifold and pre-heating tube 10mm longer on both sides
3.4.1950 alloy jacket for better pre-heating of the mixture
Sept 1952 Special jacket, longer casting (customer service part for northern countries)
1.10.1952 new design for the heat riser pipes and aluminium jacket
21.12.1953 pre-heater jacket in the down pipe |
Well, to put these in order:
March 3rd 1950 alloy jacket for better pre-heating of the mixture- This is the start of Jacketed K manifold.
May 21 .1950 welding between the manifold and pre-heating tube 10mm longer on both sides- Not sure what this is. In the German PR, was this listed as a Bus chassis number? Seems to refer to the continuous bead weld on the pre jacketed Ks. No continuous weld after that.
Sept 1952 Special jacket, longer casting (customer service part for northern countries)- Just a month before zwitter, these seems to refer to the one in int he pic above.
Oct 1, 1952 new design for the heat riser pipes and aluminium jacket- This refers to the "701" style intake and is the end of the Jacketed K. The 701 style looks like the 36hp intale, but has thinner (18mm OD) heat riser tubes and the narrower endcastings with 1.125" faces for the 25hp heads
Dec 12 1953 pre-heater jacket in the down pipe- I have no idea what this means. It might be another cold weather special intake, I know of no regularo production intakes where the jacket coverd the down pipe. Have seen some that looked like "specials" however... |
Sorry for confusing you with one spelling mistake (the extended welding) and the European ddmmyy. I agree with most your conclusions but there might be other truths out there. Here´s how it is supposed to be according to the old paper, maybe in a bit more understandable format:
21 Jan 1950 welding between the manifold and pre-heating tube 10mm longer on both sides
3 Apr 1950 alloy jacket for better pre-heating of the mixture
Sept 1952 Special jacket, longer casting (customer service part for northern countries)
1 Oct 1952 new design for the heat riser pipes and aluminium jacket
21 Dec 1953 pre-heater jacket in the down pipe
The down-pipe model is to my belief the sheet metal triangular style. I ve seen some of them and and I´ve been told by elderly German gentlemen that it was discontinued soon because it collected humidity inside and rusted the downpipe and the risers.
I have a couple of the 701 / 25 hp manifolds if someone is interested in measurements or other details (or them). They are all from 1953 engines.
Compared to 36 hp the cylinder head flanges are narrower, the OD of the round "faces" to the heads is appr 30mm (36 hp 32mm) but all of them have 20mm heat risers. My jacketed K has 18mm heat risers though.
Here´s the part of the paper stating the change from K to 701 / 25 hp.
Maybe some native German speaker can give an exact translation.
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Hebster52 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2003 Posts: 1764 Location: Finland, Jakobstad
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DONGKG The Araneta Boys
Joined: August 28, 2006 Posts: 5475 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines, "A Certified Type 3 and Karmann Ghia Maniac"
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:34 am Post subject: |
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The design of vw's through the years are so planned and thoroughly studied. Every situation calls for a different approach in the design without however sucrifising the overall design to the point that, if you are not so keen and observant, your judgment would tell that a design for a specific year model is basically the same and unaltered. Only to prove otherwise as soon as your keen eyes spots the difference.
Morerover, we vee dub buffs, despite our long years of reserch and exposure to the vw intricacies, are always blindly surprised seeing something newly shared details of the beetle or otherwise which had been kept hidden for decades and observed only recently.
To be honest, a lifetime long of reseaerch on vws is not enough for one to know every ins and outs of all volkswagens. I myself is recently hooked on kubelwagen and world war II vws, and yet, the more I dig deeper into these awesome vws, the more I see that I only knew so little of these vws.
Split bugs along will take a lifeltime to disect it with accuracy.... But what is certain is that we share the same interest and this is to fuel us in our quest to know everything about vws, vintage or otherwise....... just a thought!
Happy vintage vee dubbing!
Dong _________________ '67 KG Cabrio (Mickey) ;
'66 Type 3 (Sharky 2)
'72 Type 2 Homey
'67 Splitty Bus
'65 beetle;'69 Country Buggy; '44 Kubelwagen (replica) TOOB MEMBER #20 |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Hebster52 wrote: |
Is this manifold worth repairing?
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Absolutely. I have been doing leg replacements for 10 years now on the jacketed Ks and there is always demand for those intakes. I buy everyone that I can get my hands on, and I still have people looking for them all the time. There are some pics and details on the early and late styles of that intake (both valuable) in the "Zarwerks Spy Cam" thread... _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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roymartian Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2011 Posts: 377 Location: MELBOURNE
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Any ideas on repair procedure i have exactly same issue, is it as simple as welding a donor leg on. My later donor intake seems to have different radius and angle.
Thanks, |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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roymartian wrote: |
Any ideas on repair procedure i have exactly same issue, is it as simple as welding a donor leg on. My later donor intake seems to have different radius and angle.
Thanks, |
It is not as simple as welding a new leg on. The problem is that the heat riser metal is very, very thin, even when not rusted. I think I have pics of the repairs I do at the Zarwerks Spy Cam thread.
I cut off the legs completely, then "chase" the remnant of the tubing back into the aluminum jacket at least 35 mm, peeling it out and removing it. Then I use a straight cut reamer to ream out the bore in the jacket to 18mm, about 35-40mm. I fabricate new legs out of 2mm wall thickness metric specification tubing, slot them with grooves and secure them into the jacket with a high temperature epoxy. The intake is bolted to a fixture to hold everything in alignment until the epoxy sets.
I used to try to sell "replacement" heat riser legs that people could ream and epoxy in themselves, but I found that every intake was slightly different in the angle of the tubing where it exited the aluminum jacket. When I do these restorations, there is a lot of trial and error fitting, and I don't weld the flanges onto the new legs until every thing bolts up perfectly to the intake fixture that I made. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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roymartian Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2011 Posts: 377 Location: MELBOURNE
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks John, sounds like a much more engineered solution.
Do you still have any kits left for sale please ? |
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johnshenry Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001 Posts: 9359 Location: Northwood, NH USA
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I no longer sell the replacement legs Roy, as I mentioned above, there is no way to get a bend in the legs that I can be assured will fit the intake it is going in. Unless I have the intake in my shop, on the fixture, I can't get the leg to fit perfectly, weld on the flange, and epoxy it into the jacket. _________________ John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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roymartian Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2011 Posts: 377 Location: MELBOURNE
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi John,
No worries, understand - at least I understand best method now.
Thanks, |
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Hebster52 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2003 Posts: 1764 Location: Finland, Jakobstad
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nlorntson Crazy VW Lady
Joined: March 13, 2004 Posts: 3776 Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: More 25 hp intake manifold alternatives |
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I have this intake and I'm trying to confirm what it fits.
About 28mm OD at the head and about 28 ID where the carb attaches so I believe it fits a 25hp head. Part number is 111 129 701 with the grinding at the end of the number.
It has the short casting area and looks alot like the typical 36hp version as far as the legs go.
On the front side there are three blobs of weld holding the tubes together. I'll post pictures in a bit but any ideas based on my description? |
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pastellgreen Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012 Posts: 1036 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:16 am Post subject: Re: More 25 hp intake manifold alternatives |
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Do you mean this:
Both engines, the original from the car from 1950 and the industrial engine from 1953 had these...
By the way did you see the mistake on the two sheets above? Main jet for 26 VFIS: 102 and 120? |
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splitjunkie Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 5:22 am Post subject: Re: More 25 hp intake manifold alternatives |
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That sounds like the later 25hp replacement manifold that is a 36 hp manifold with 25 hp end castings. It will work just fine but was never a production part on 25 hp engines installed in cars or buses. _________________ Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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